Discussion:
Farage being an idiot - talking about a second referendum
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James Harris
2018-01-11 10:46:56 UTC
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Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.

https://twitter.com/5WrightStuff/status/951394851811221510


His logic, apparently, is that it would silence Brexit's critics for a
generation. I would suggest he is being incredibly stupid. Perhaps he
has become too wrapped up in the political bubble to see what's real to
people in the country. I don't know. But holding another referendum -
and even suggesting it - is and would be a completely inept thing to do.


First, the public were promised that whatever they decided in June 2016
WOULD BE PUT INTO EFFECT. That was the threat or promise to the public,
and they voted on that basis. Even to ask them the same question again
would be a betrayal - the kind that makes people disbelieve in politics
and the political process.

Second, the EU has a reputation for getting people to vote again if they
don't give the EU the answer it wants. I find it hard to believe that
Nigel Farage, of all people, is saying he might be complicit in doing
just that.

Third, he seems to forget that overconfidence can lead to a fall. There
is NO guarantee that the public would vote the way he wants a second
time. They might. But elections are fickle things and Farage might be
caught up in his own world of self belief where the world is as he wants
to see it. And he is stupid to let that cloud his judgement.

Fourth, if he is suggesting a referendum on the terms and the choice is
to accept them or stay in then it will say to the EU that if they offer
us a bad deal we will stay. As a proposition, that is completely inept.


So whatever Nigel Farage's problems are with the Remoaners who keep
annoying him personally I would suggest he discusses with wiser heads
than just his own in future before he opens his mouth again. He has done
a great job in this past. But this is not about him and his personal
opinions. It is about the future of millions of us, not one individual,
no matter how prominent or important he has been in the past. He, too,
is subject to their expressed will.
--
James Harris
True Blue
2018-01-11 10:59:00 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.
I've just viewed it. He was focussed on attacking Blair et al and suggested it as a means of shutting them up and not through any doubt of right and purpose in leaving the EUSSR.

Very careless in my opinion.....
johnny-knowall
2018-01-11 13:02:40 UTC
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Post by True Blue
Post by James Harris
Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.
I've just viewed it. He was focussed on attacking Blair et al and suggested
it as a means of shutting them up and not through any doubt of right and
purpose in leaving the EUSSR.
Very careless in my opinion.....
Why would Farage worry about Blair?

Surely, he must know that the public have no respect for the warmonger?
abelard
2018-01-11 13:14:31 UTC
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Post by johnny-knowall
Post by True Blue
Post by James Harris
Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.
I've just viewed it. He was focussed on attacking Blair et al and suggested
it as a means of shutting them up and not through any doubt of right and
purpose in leaving the EUSSR.
Very careless in my opinion.....
Why would Farage worry about Blair?
Surely, he must know that the public have no respect for the warmonger?
loss of 'respect' for bliar only occurred once he'd blown up the
economy with noble assistance from the clown and milipede
and corvyd...

now the same idiots that believed bliar was the third coming..
now believe they've discovered that is was really corvyd...
--
www.abelard.org
johnny-knowall
2018-01-11 13:20:12 UTC
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Post by abelard
Post by johnny-knowall
Post by True Blue
Post by James Harris
Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.
I've just viewed it. He was focussed on attacking Blair et al and suggested
it as a means of shutting them up and not through any doubt of right and
purpose in leaving the EUSSR.
Very careless in my opinion.....
Why would Farage worry about Blair?
Surely, he must know that the public have no respect for the warmonger?
loss of 'respect' for bliar only occurred once he'd blown up the
economy with noble assistance from the clown and milipede
and corvyd...
now the same idiots that believed bliar was the third coming..
now believe they've discovered that is was really corvyd...
Which still doesn’t answer the question of why Farage is keen to shut Blair
up?
Dan S. MacAbre
2018-01-11 13:25:32 UTC
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Post by johnny-knowall
Post by True Blue
Post by James Harris
Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.
I've just viewed it. He was focussed on attacking Blair et al and suggested
it as a means of shutting them up and not through any doubt of right and
purpose in leaving the EUSSR.
Very careless in my opinion.....
Why would Farage worry about Blair?
Surely, he must know that the public have no respect for the warmonger?
They have short memories? They are easily manipulated?
James Harris
2018-01-11 21:09:40 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.
Here's a bit more info.

Farage tweeted: Maybe, just maybe, we should have a second referendum on
EU membership. It would kill off the issue for a generation once and for
all. https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/951400764697653248

But on his LBC radio show later his message was different or had a
different set of emphases:

1. He said his meeting with Michel Barnier convinced him that the EU
would not offer the UK a good deal.

2. He thought that the government would probably not get the final deal
approved by parliament and it would come down to a final referendum
anyway so Brexiteers should prepare.


IMO he is absolutely right to point out that the battle is not won, and
that Brexiteers need to keep up the fight. UKIP is already doing that.

But I believe he is:

* wrong to posit that there could be a second referendum (because that
will be give the Remoan camp ammo for the next year or so and cause lots
of other problems as mentioned before),

* wrong to pin our future on an assumption that he will win next time
(the Remain camp will be much better prepared and more motivated),

* wrong to accept what Barnier says unquestioningly (the real power in
the negotiations will be with the Council, not with the Commission, let
alone with the Commission's agent), and

* wrong to publicise this as he has done because that will undermine the
government and the negotiations. He has done what many of his
Brexit-supporting critics have often said they feared he would.

I think it's evident that out of Farage's meeting Barnier "won" because
he successfully put fear in Farage and convinced him that the EU
position was non-negotiable. Ugh!

Despite the good Farage has undeniably done in the past, and the good in
telling voters they need to keep fighting for Brexit, I would think that
Brexiteers would have a right to be beyond anger with Farage for the
majority of what he has done with this.

:-(
--
James Harris
James Harris
2018-01-11 21:18:17 UTC
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On 11/01/2018 21:09, James Harris wrote:

...
Post by James Harris
He has done what many of his
Brexit-supporting critics have often said they feared he would.
One of those critics was Suzanne Evans. People criticised her for it but
this article is good. (Extracts follow.)

Farage’s comments are an open goal for the Remain camp. Lord Adonis and
Chuka Umunna have leapt on them, as has the Green Party leadership and
the pro-EU campaign group, Open Britain. Farage has thrown them a
lifeline; all are claiming his words prove Brexit is reversible.

Farage has played into the EU’s hands too. “The EU is happy to play for
time and see Britain sweat,” he wrote in the Daily Telegraph, following
his meeting with Barnier. Well congratulations, Nigel. You’ve just
delivered another reason for the EU to play cat and mouse with the
people of Britain.

Farage has again justified my decision to back Vote Leave for
designation as the official EU referendum campaign. Farage put intense
pressure on kippers to back rival Leave.EU, which would have made him
and him alone the campaign figurehead. My refusal to play ball saw me
sacked as Deputy Chairman of UKIP and suspended from the party on
trumped up charges, but I made the right call. Had Leave.EU had sole
responsibility for the EU referendum, Farage’s divisive antics might
well have lost it for us.

I am pleased to see that UKIP has stood up to Farage’s hubris, speedily
confirming party policy that the referendum decision needs to be
implemented without further delay, and not re-run. Leave means leave.
Let’s get on with it, no deviation or hesitation, and definitely no
repetition.

http://brexitcentral.com/nigel-farages-call-second-eu-referendum-epically-stupid/
--
James Harris
johnny-knowall
2018-01-11 21:41:33 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by James Harris
Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.
Here's a bit more info.
Farage tweeted: Maybe, just maybe, we should have a second referendum on
EU membership. It would kill off the issue for a generation once and for
all. https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/951400764697653248
But on his LBC radio show later his message was different or had a
That is because he has been given an almighty blocking by UKIP.

A slimy turd, if ever there was one.
Post by James Harris
1. He said his meeting with Michel Barnier convinced him that the EU
would not offer the UK a good deal.
2. He thought that the government would probably not get the final deal
approved by parliament and it would come down to a final referendum
anyway so Brexiteers should prepare.
IMO he is absolutely right to point out that the battle is not won, and
that Brexiteers need to keep up the fight. UKIP is already doing that.
* wrong to posit that there could be a second referendum (because that
will be give the Remoan camp ammo for the next year or so and cause lots
of other problems as mentioned before),
* wrong to pin our future on an assumption that he will win next time
(the Remain camp will be much better prepared and more motivated),
* wrong to accept what Barnier says unquestioningly (the real power in
the negotiations will be with the Council, not with the Commission, let
alone with the Commission's agent), and
* wrong to publicise this as he has done because that will undermine the
government and the negotiations. He has done what many of his
Brexit-supporting critics have often said they feared he would.
I think it's evident that out of Farage's meeting Barnier "won" because
he successfully put fear in Farage and convinced him that the EU
position was non-negotiable. Ugh!
Despite the good Farage has undeniably done in the past, and the good in
telling voters they need to keep fighting for Brexit, I would think that
Brexiteers would have a right to be beyond anger with Farage for the
majority of what he has done with this.
Post by James Harris
-(
MM
2018-01-15 10:51:14 UTC
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On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 21:09:40 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
Post by James Harris
Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.
Here's a bit more info.
Farage tweeted: Maybe, just maybe, we should have a second referendum on
EU membership. It would kill off the issue for a generation once and for
all. https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/951400764697653248
But on his LBC radio show later his message was different or had a
1. He said his meeting with Michel Barnier convinced him that the EU
would not offer the UK a good deal.
Hardly surprising. The EU has said all along that we're not going to
be better off outside the union.

As for Farage, he's waking up to the complacency, this time of the
Brexiters. The Remain voice is now making all the running, with huge
support from across the country and across the world. Brexiters are
puny in comparison, and don't help their case by just sitting back and
waiting for the bus to the cliffs.

MM
m***@btopenworld.com
2018-01-15 12:17:53 UTC
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Post by MM
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 21:09:40 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
1. He said his meeting with Michel Barnier convinced him that the EU
would not offer the UK a good deal.
Hardly surprising. The EU has said all along that we're not going to
be better off outside the union.
Well they would wouldn't they?

The antithesis to this is that we would we would be better off if we remained. The problem with this view is that the numbers don't stack up. Why has it taken 44 years just to become worse off?

If the EU is set upon impoverishing the UK then how are they going to manage it whilst preserving their trade surplus with us at the same time?

What's going to happen to all those cars, consumer goods, wine, fruit, vegetables, pork, dairy products that hitherto used to come here?
Post by MM
As for Farage, he's waking up to the complacency, this time of the
Brexiters. The Remain voice is now making all the running, with huge
support from across the country and across the world. Brexiters are
puny in comparison, and don't help their case by just sitting back and
waiting for the bus to the cliffs.
What has "support from across the world" to do with it? Whose Brexit is it anyway?

You would do well to direct some of your enthusiasm for remaining to some of our European 'partners' and traditional enemies.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/09/04/french-public-are-more-likely-want-uk-leave-stay-e/

"More French people would prefer the UK to leave the EU than remain"
MM
2018-01-16 14:47:10 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by MM
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 21:09:40 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
1. He said his meeting with Michel Barnier convinced him that the EU
would not offer the UK a good deal.
Hardly surprising. The EU has said all along that we're not going to
be better off outside the union.
Well they would wouldn't they?
The antithesis to this is that we would we would be better off if we remained. The problem with this view is that the numbers don't stack up. Why has it taken 44 years just to become worse off?
We haven't become worse off. On the contrary the UK has benefited
hugely from EU/EEC membership.
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
If the EU is set upon impoverishing the UK then how are they going to manage it whilst preserving their trade surplus with us at the same time?
They will take a hit rather than allow Britain to be better off
outside the EU.
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
What's going to happen to all those cars, consumer goods, wine, fruit, vegetables, pork, dairy products that hitherto used to come here?
Nothing. They'll just cost the British consumer more to buy.
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by MM
As for Farage, he's waking up to the complacency, this time of the
Brexiters. The Remain voice is now making all the running, with huge
support from across the country and across the world. Brexiters are
puny in comparison, and don't help their case by just sitting back and
waiting for the bus to the cliffs.
What has "support from across the world" to do with it? Whose Brexit is it anyway?
Did you not understand it when Theresa May spoke of a global Britain?
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-global-britain/
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
You would do well to direct some of your enthusiasm for remaining to some of our European 'partners' and traditional enemies.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/09/04/french-public-are-more-likely-want-uk-leave-stay-e/
"More French people would prefer the UK to leave the EU than remain"
Not surprising. Which makes it even less likely that Britain will be
better off out.

MM
James Harris
2018-01-16 16:56:10 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by MM
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 21:09:40 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
1. He said his meeting with Michel Barnier convinced him that the EU
would not offer the UK a good deal.
Hardly surprising. The EU has said all along that we're not going to
be better off outside the union.
Well they would wouldn't they?
The antithesis to this is that we would we would be better off if we remained. The problem with this view is that the numbers don't stack up. Why has it taken 44 years just to become worse off?
We haven't become worse off. On the contrary the UK has benefited
hugely from EU/EEC membership.
When we joined the European Project on 1 Jan 1973 we were said to be an
economic basket case. If the EU/EEC did benefit us hugely, as you claim,
MM, why did we continue to be an economic basket case for 6, 7, 8 or
more years? Are you claiming it takes that long to start receiving
EU/EEC benefits?
--
James Harris
m***@btopenworld.com
2018-01-16 19:20:28 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
The antithesis to this is that we would we would be better off if we remained. The problem with this view is that the numbers don't stack up. Why has it taken 44 years just to become worse off?
We haven't become worse off. On the contrary the UK has benefited
hugely from EU/EEC membership.
How?

Alternatively get your teeth into this:

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/EuropeanDebateNo2Growth.pdf

You still haven't told me how we can increase our prosperity within Europe by

1. Paying in more than we take out.

2. Buying more from EU countries that we sell to them.

Why have the following countries surpassed the UK (as well as France Germany and Italy since 1973>

Singapore?

South Korea?

Taiwan?

Australia?

Canada?

What have they got (or not got) what we have?

What is so wrong in having a say in choosing those who govern you?
Post by MM
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
If the EU is set upon impoverishing the UK then how are they going to manage it whilst preserving their trade surplus with us at the same time?
They will take a hit rather than allow Britain to be better off
outside the EU.
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
What's going to happen to all those cars, consumer goods, wine, fruit, vegetables, pork, dairy products that hitherto used to come here?
Nothing. They'll just cost the British consumer more to buy.
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by MM
As for Farage, he's waking up to the complacency, this time of the
Brexiters. The Remain voice is now making all the running, with huge
support from across the country and across the world. Brexiters are
puny in comparison, and don't help their case by just sitting back and
waiting for the bus to the cliffs.
What has "support from across the world" to do with it? Whose Brexit is it anyway?
Did you not understand it when Theresa May spoke of a global Britain?
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-mays-brexit-speech-global-britain/
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
You would do well to direct some of your enthusiasm for remaining to some of our European 'partners' and traditional enemies.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/09/04/french-public-are-more-likely-want-uk-leave-stay-e/
"More French people would prefer the UK to leave the EU than remain"
Not surprising. Which makes it even less likely that Britain will be
better off out.
Which of course is a good reason for getting out and staying out.
i***@iniref.org
2018-01-11 22:47:54 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by James Harris
Incredibly, Nigel Farage has said that he is thinking about their being
a second referendum on EU membership.
https://twitter.com/5WrightStuff/status/951394851811221510
His logic, apparently, is that it would silence Brexit's critics for a
generation. I would suggest he is being incredibly stupid. Perhaps he
has become too wrapped up in the political bubble to see what's real to
people in the country. I don't know. But holding another referendum -
and even suggesting it - is and would be a completely inept thing to do.
First, the public were promised that whatever they decided in June 2016
WOULD BE PUT INTO EFFECT. That was the threat or promise to the public,
and they voted on that basis. Even to ask them the same question again
would be a betrayal - the kind that makes people disbelieve in politics
and the political process.
Second, the EU has a reputation for getting people to vote again if they
don't give the EU the answer it wants. I find it hard to believe that
Nigel Farage, of all people, is saying he might be complicit in doing
just that.
Third, he seems to forget that overconfidence can lead to a fall. There
is NO guarantee that the public would vote the way he wants a second
time. They might. But elections are fickle things and Farage might be
caught up in his own world of self belief where the world is as he wants
to see it. And he is stupid to let that cloud his judgement.
Fourth, if he is suggesting a referendum on the terms and the choice is
to accept them or stay in then it will say to the EU that if they offer
us a bad deal we will stay. As a proposition, that is completely inept.
So whatever Nigel Farage's problems are with the Remoaners who keep
annoying him personally I would suggest he discusses with wiser heads
than just his own in future before he opens his mouth again. He has done
a great job in this past. But this is not about him and his personal
opinions. It is about the future of millions of us, not one individual,
no matter how prominent or important he has been in the past. He, too,
is subject to their expressed will.
--
James Harris
There is already a bill, proposal for a ballot about "the deal", in Parliament: Referendum on the Brexit "deal", proposal in Parliament

Terms of Withdrawal from EU (Referendum) Bill
https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/termsofwithdrawalfromeureferendum.html

Referendum on the Brexit "deal"

Hold a referendum on the Brexit "deal", the negotiated terms for leaving the EU. This is the aim of a bill put forward by MPs in Parliament. Plenty of time is left to think it over, to debate and lobby.

If you wish to reject or support this proposal then you should contact your MP and also if possible promote your point of view widely, https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mps/

In Parliament the Next Event will be the second "Reading" of the bill on 19 January 2018. The "terms" or "deal" for leaving the EU in the bill are called the "exit package".

On the proposed ballot paper will appear two choices, only one of these may be marked with a cross, they are:

Support the Government’s proposed exit package (ed. and leave the EU).

Remain a member of the European Union.


===============================


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