Discussion:
Venezuela failed to kill all the oligarchs - Ken Livingstone
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James Harris
2017-08-03 11:55:01 UTC
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Raw Message
I listened to the interview but thought I had misheard part of it. Ken
Livingstone appeared clearly to say that one of Venezuela's problems was
that when Chavez came to power he didn't kill all the oligarchs....

From 4:00 in
http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ken-livingstone-venezuela-should-have-followed-my-economic-advice-17080317002.
--
James Harris
Yellow
2017-08-03 12:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <olv2n0$vb5$***@dont-email.me>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by James Harris
I listened to the interview but thought I had misheard part of it. Ken
Livingstone appeared clearly to say that one of Venezuela's problems was
that when Chavez came to power he didn't kill all the oligarchs....
From 4:00 in
http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ken-livingstone-venezuela-should-have-followed-my-economic-advice-17080317002.
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.

So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.

Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
abelard
2017-08-03 14:23:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by James Harris
I listened to the interview but thought I had misheard part of it. Ken
Livingstone appeared clearly to say that one of Venezuela's problems was
that when Chavez came to power he didn't kill all the oligarchs....
From 4:00 in
http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ken-livingstone-venezuela-should-have-followed-my-economic-advice-17080317002.
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists

the triumph of self-delusion over experience
--
www.abelard.org
Vidcapper
2017-08-03 15:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
abelard
2017-08-03 15:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
how long is long?
how many countries have 'a long history of democracy'?

most dictators do not have anything like the taste for killing
that is exhibited by those adhering to the cult

the military dictators don't...
the islamic dictators don't...

do you never wonder at the differences?
--
www.abelard.org
Vidcapper
2017-08-04 05:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
how long is long?
how many countries have 'a long history of democracy'?
most dictators do not have anything like the taste for killing
that is exhibited by those adhering to the cult
the military dictators don't...
the islamic dictators don't...
do you never wonder at the differences?
What differences?
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
abelard
2017-08-04 09:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
how long is long?
how many countries have 'a long history of democracy'?
most dictators do not have anything like the taste for killing
that is exhibited by those adhering to the cult
the military dictators don't...
the islamic dictators don't...
do you never wonder at the differences?
What differences?
what i just said!!
--
www.abelard.org
Fredxxx
2017-08-04 09:47:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
how long is long?
how many countries have 'a long history of democracy'?
most dictators do not have anything like the taste for killing
that is exhibited by those adhering to the cult
the military dictators don't...
the islamic dictators don't...
do you never wonder at the differences?
What differences?
what i just said!!
You've lost me too. Did Hitler follow a cult?
Yellow
2017-08-03 16:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <Y3HgB.481167$***@fx39.am4>, ***@yahoo.co.uk
says...
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
So you think it could never happen here?

As we have discussed in this group at length over the last year or two,
Parliament has total authority so if it has a big enough majority it can
pretty much get anything through.
saracene
2017-08-03 16:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
So you think it could never happen here?
As we have discussed in this group at length over the last year or two,
Parliament has total authority so if it has a big enough majority it can
pretty much get anything through.
Parilament is made up of its members. What are you understanding by "anything"?
Vidcapper
2017-08-04 05:55:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
So you think it could never happen here?
Well, you said it...
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Big Jumper
2017-08-03 21:23:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
If God forbid, that Corbyn and his commie cronies did actually win a GE,
Corbyn would still not become PM, because the intelligence services and
armed forces would take over the country and put it under martial law,
which is better than being ruled by socialists !

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
abelard
2017-08-03 22:04:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Big Jumper
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
If God forbid, that Corbyn and his commie cronies did actually win a GE,
Corbyn would still not become PM, because the intelligence services and
armed forces would take over the country and put it under martial law,
which is better than being ruled by socialists !
your confidence is welcome optimism...

they didn't stop bliar though they did sideline brown the clown
--
www.abelard.org
tim...
2017-08-04 09:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Big Jumper
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
If God forbid, that Corbyn and his commie cronies did actually win a GE,
Corbyn would still not become PM, because the intelligence services and
armed forces would take over the country and put it under martial law,
which is better than being ruled by socialists !
your confidence is welcome optimism...
they didn't stop bliar
whilst briar's policies may not have been routinely popular with his lefty
(theoretical) colleagues

I don't see that any of them were ones which should worry the security
forces

tim
abelard
2017-08-04 09:26:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by abelard
Post by Big Jumper
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
If God forbid, that Corbyn and his commie cronies did actually win a GE,
Corbyn would still not become PM, because the intelligence services and
armed forces would take over the country and put it under martial law,
which is better than being ruled by socialists !
your confidence is welcome optimism...
they didn't stop bliar
whilst briar's policies may not have been routinely popular with his lefty
(theoretical) colleagues
I don't see that any of them were ones which should worry the security
forces
the fabian theory is to destroy society by chinese water torture...
so's the boiling frog doesn't notice he is being boiled...

the objective is not changed in the slightest degree...just the
rate at which the revolution/millennium is to be achieved...
--
www.abelard.org
Fredxxx
2017-08-04 09:48:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by abelard
Post by Big Jumper
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
If God forbid, that Corbyn and his commie cronies did actually win a GE,
Corbyn would still not become PM, because the intelligence services and
armed forces would take over the country and put it under martial law,
which is better than being ruled by socialists !
your confidence is welcome optimism...
they didn't stop bliar
whilst briar's policies may not have been routinely popular with his
lefty (theoretical) colleagues
I don't see that any of them were ones which should worry the security
forces
Like the invasion of Iraq and the consequent formation of IS?

Are you suggesting our "security forces" aren't concerned with IS?
tim...
2017-08-04 10:22:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxxx
Post by tim...
Post by abelard
Post by Big Jumper
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
If God forbid, that Corbyn and his commie cronies did actually win a GE,
Corbyn would still not become PM, because the intelligence services and
armed forces would take over the country and put it under martial law,
which is better than being ruled by socialists !
your confidence is welcome optimism...
they didn't stop bliar
whilst briar's policies may not have been routinely popular with his
lefty (theoretical) colleagues
I don't see that any of them were ones which should worry the security
forces
Like the invasion of Iraq
yep (or Nope, depending on how you look at it)
Post by Fredxxx
and the consequent formation of IS?
an unpredicted unexpected event.

How can an unpredicted unexpected event worry "today's" authorities?
Post by Fredxxx
Are you suggesting our "security forces" aren't concerned with IS?
If they were worried about this during Blair's reign, why didn't they tell
us it was going to happen?

tim
Fredxxx
2017-08-04 11:15:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by Fredxxx
Post by tim...
Post by abelard
Post by Big Jumper
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Yellow
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
what surprises me is that anyone expects any different
from socialists
the triumph of self-delusion over experience
would it be 'self-delusion' to point out that these extreme regimes tend
to spring up only in countries with no long tradition of democracy?
If God forbid, that Corbyn and his commie cronies did actually win a GE,
Corbyn would still not become PM, because the intelligence services and
armed forces would take over the country and put it under martial law,
which is better than being ruled by socialists !
your confidence is welcome optimism...
they didn't stop bliar
whilst briar's policies may not have been routinely popular with his
lefty (theoretical) colleagues
I don't see that any of them were ones which should worry the security
forces
Like the invasion of Iraq
yep (or Nope, depending on how you look at it)
Post by Fredxxx
and the consequent formation of IS?
an unpredicted unexpected event.
I anticipated this sort of combat in towns and cities the West doesn't
have the stomach for. What has surprised me is the delay in IS being
formed and how they seemed to have extraordinary mission creep.
Post by tim...
How can an unpredicted unexpected event worry "today's" authorities?
Post by Fredxxx
Are you suggesting our "security forces" aren't concerned with IS?
If they were worried about this during Blair's reign, why didn't they
tell us it was going to happen?
In much the same way the 'intelligence' told us Saddam had WMDs? You are
kidding us, aren't you?
James Harris
2017-08-03 14:48:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by James Harris
I listened to the interview but thought I had misheard part of it. Ken
Livingstone appeared clearly to say that one of Venezuela's problems was
that when Chavez came to power he didn't kill all the oligarchs....
From 4:00 in
http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ken-livingstone-venezuela-should-have-followed-my-economic-advice-17080317002.
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
I was stunned by it. Still am. The casual way Livingstone said it - as
if he thought it at least an option that a new regime should kill off
the wealthiest. Not banish them. Not even appropriate their wealth. Kill
them. Still stunned!
Post by Yellow
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
It's been said that every time socialism has been tried it has caused
much suffering but then more socialists arise and say that all the other
socialists failed because they "didn't do it properly".
Post by Yellow
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
--
James Harris
saracene
2017-08-03 15:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Harris
I was stunned by it. Still am. The casual way Livingstone said it - as
if he thought it at least an option that a new regime should kill off
the wealthiest. Not banish them. Not even appropriate their wealth. Kill
them. Still stunned!
Thrasybulus was an ally of Periander, the tyrant of Corinth. He features in a famous anecdote from Herodotus's Histories, in which a messenger from Periander asks Thrasybulus for advice on ruling. Thrasybulus, instead of responding, takes the messenger for a walk in a field of wheat, where he proceeds to cut off all of the best and tallest ears of wheat. The message, correctly interpreted by Periander, was that a wise ruler would preempt challenges to his rule by "removing" those prominent men who might be powerful enough to challenge him; this story gave the name to Tall poppy syndrome.
abelard
2017-08-03 15:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by saracene
Post by James Harris
I was stunned by it. Still am. The casual way Livingstone said it - as
if he thought it at least an option that a new regime should kill off
the wealthiest. Not banish them. Not even appropriate their wealth. Kill
them. Still stunned!
Thrasybulus was an ally of Periander, the tyrant of Corinth. He features in a famous anecdote from Herodotus's Histories, in which a messenger from Periander asks Thrasybulus for advice on ruling. Thrasybulus, instead of responding, takes the messenger for a walk in a field of wheat, where he proceeds to cut off all of the best and tallest ears of wheat. The message, correctly interpreted by Periander, was that a wise ruler would preempt challenges to his rule by "removing" those prominent men who might be powerful enough to challenge him; this story gave the name to Tall poppy syndrome.
the hatred of tall poppies is remarkably widespread...

i see trump....and cameron...and diana...and einstein....
and churchill...and on and on...


the mediocre rarely stop bitching about them...it isn't just dictators
who dislike and abhor them
--
www.abelard.org
saracene
2017-08-03 15:33:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
Post by James Harris
I was stunned by it. Still am. The casual way Livingstone said it - as
if he thought it at least an option that a new regime should kill off
the wealthiest. Not banish them. Not even appropriate their wealth. Kill
them. Still stunned!
Thrasybulus was an ally of Periander, the tyrant of Corinth. He features in a famous anecdote from Herodotus's Histories, in which a messenger from Periander asks Thrasybulus for advice on ruling. Thrasybulus, instead of responding, takes the messenger for a walk in a field of wheat, where he proceeds to cut off all of the best and tallest ears of wheat. The message, correctly interpreted by Periander, was that a wise ruler would preempt challenges to his rule by "removing" those prominent men who might be powerful enough to challenge him; this story gave the name to Tall poppy syndrome.
the hatred of tall poppies is remarkably widespread...
i see trump....and cameron...and diana...and einstein....
and churchill...and on and on...
the mediocre rarely stop bitching about them...it isn't just dictators
who dislike and abhor them
Hence also those who blame tyranny and Periander's advice to Thrasybulus must not be thought to be absolutely right in their censure (the story is that Periander made no reply to the herald sent to ask his advice, but levelled the corn-field by plucking off the ears that stood out above the rest; and consequently, although the herald did not know the reason for what was going on, when he carried back news of what had occurred, Thrasybulus understood that he was to destroy the outstanding citizens); for this policy is advantageous not only for tyrants, nor is it only tyrants that use it, but the same is the case with oligarchies and democracies as well; for ostracism has in a way the same effect as docking off the outstanding men by exile. And the same course is adopted in regard to cities and races by the holders of sovereign power, for example the Athenians so dealt with the Samians and Chians and Lesbians (for no sooner did they get a strong hold of their empire than they humbled them in contravention of their covenants), (Aristotle)
Joe
2017-08-03 17:24:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 15:48:44 +0100
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left
wing policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now
promoting the murder of the people who operate outside of their
political ideology.
It's been said that every time socialism has been tried it has caused
much suffering but then more socialists arise and say that all the
other socialists failed because they "didn't do it properly".
Now you know what 'doing it properly' means.
--
Joe
saracene
2017-08-03 17:37:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Joe
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 15:48:44 +0100
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left
wing policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now
promoting the murder of the people who operate outside of their
political ideology.
It's been said that every time socialism has been tried it has caused
much suffering but then more socialists arise and say that all the
other socialists failed because they "didn't do it properly".
Now you know what 'doing it properly' means.
Ken is plausible scoundrel. For him the British Labour party of the fifites and sixties was socialist, and so is the Norwegian soical democracy that he considers to have delivered prosperity. According to him the fifites and sixties were a happy time for Britain. The Labour party was responsible for bringing the people out of poverty. South American socialists just want to be like the Europeans, and are obstructed by the wicked Ameriicans. As a professional politician all he is really focussed on is power and his simplifications are designed entirely with that in mind. As a politician he was very successful.
abelard
2017-08-03 18:15:56 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Joe
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 15:48:44 +0100
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left
wing policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now
promoting the murder of the people who operate outside of their
political ideology.
It's been said that every time socialism has been tried it has caused
much suffering but then more socialists arise and say that all the
other socialists failed because they "didn't do it properly".
Now you know what 'doing it properly' means.
i have replied to this post in a new thread

has socialism *ever* produced any good for the poor anywhere at any
time??
--
www.abelard.org
Vidcapper
2017-08-04 06:01:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Joe
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 15:48:44 +0100
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left
wing policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now
promoting the murder of the people who operate outside of their
political ideology.
It's been said that every time socialism has been tried it has caused
much suffering but then more socialists arise and say that all the
other socialists failed because they "didn't do it properly".
Now you know what 'doing it properly' means.
i have replied to this post in a new thread
has socialism *ever* produced any good for the poor anywhere at any
time??
Yes.

Old Age Pensions are certainly better than the Workhouses that preceded
them!
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
abelard
2017-08-04 09:27:45 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Joe
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 15:48:44 +0100
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left
wing policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now
promoting the murder of the people who operate outside of their
political ideology.
It's been said that every time socialism has been tried it has caused
much suffering but then more socialists arise and say that all the
other socialists failed because they "didn't do it properly".
Now you know what 'doing it properly' means.
i have replied to this post in a new thread
has socialism *ever* produced any good for the poor anywhere at any
time??
Yes.
Old Age Pensions are certainly better than the Workhouses that preceded
them!
the liberal and conservatives brought in old age pensions and were
working to expand them
--
www.abelard.org
Vidcapper
2017-08-04 13:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
has socialism *ever* produced any good for the poor anywhere at any
time??
Yes.
Old Age Pensions are certainly better than the Workhouses that preceded
them!
the liberal and conservatives brought in old age pensions and were
working to expand them
I expected you to say that.

However, they only did so because of ever-rising pressure from the left.

The obvious modern analogy is of UKIP pressure causing the Tories to
hold the Brexit referendum.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
abelard
2017-08-04 15:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
has socialism *ever* produced any good for the poor anywhere at any
time??
Yes.
Old Age Pensions are certainly better than the Workhouses that preceded
them!
the liberal and conservatives brought in old age pensions and were
working to expand them
I expected you to say that.
that's because i deal in facts...sorry, i know that annoys you
Post by Vidcapper
However, they only did so because of ever-rising pressure from the left.
you say that because you deal in suppositions
Post by Vidcapper
The obvious modern analogy is of UKIP pressure causing the Tories to
hold the Brexit referendum.
more suppositions...
--
www.abelard.org
Vidcapper
2017-08-04 15:29:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
has socialism *ever* produced any good for the poor anywhere at any
time??
Yes.
Old Age Pensions are certainly better than the Workhouses that preceded
them!
the liberal and conservatives brought in old age pensions and were
working to expand them
I expected you to say that.
that's because i deal in facts...sorry, i know that annoys you
Post by Vidcapper
However, they only did so because of ever-rising pressure from the left.
you say that because you deal in suppositions
Post by Vidcapper
The obvious modern analogy is of UKIP pressure causing the Tories to
hold the Brexit referendum.
more suppositions...
No plural there.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
abelard
2017-08-04 16:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
has socialism *ever* produced any good for the poor anywhere at any
time??
Yes.
Old Age Pensions are certainly better than the Workhouses that preceded
them!
the liberal and conservatives brought in old age pensions and were
working to expand them
I expected you to say that.
that's because i deal in facts...sorry, i know that annoys you
Post by Vidcapper
However, they only did so because of ever-rising pressure from the left.
you say that because you deal in suppositions
Post by Vidcapper
The obvious modern analogy is of UKIP pressure causing the Tories to
hold the Brexit referendum.
more suppositions...
No plural there.
18 trillion of 'it'
--
www.abelard.org
Farmer Giles
2017-08-05 06:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
has socialism *ever* produced any good for the poor anywhere at any
time??
Yes.
Old Age Pensions are certainly better than the Workhouses that preceded
them!
the liberal and conservatives brought in old age pensions and were
working to expand them
I expected you to say that.
that's because i deal in facts...sorry, i know that annoys you
You only deal in 'facts' when they are convenient, at other times you
run away from them.

Now, do tell me about this 'fact' of yours that the Conservatives were
part of bringing in old age pensions, when was this?
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
However, they only did so because of ever-rising pressure from the left.
you say that because you deal in suppositions
Anyone who has any real understanding of early 20th Century politics
(which rules you out) knows that to be the case.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Vidcapper
2017-08-05 06:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Old Age Pensions are certainly better than the Workhouses that preceded
them!
the liberal and conservatives brought in old age pensions and were
working to expand them
I expected you to say that.
that's because i deal in facts...sorry, i know that annoys you
Just because they brought them in doesn't mean they were the driving
force behind their introduction. I for one cannot believe that the
Tories wouldn't have resisted their introduction tooth & nail!
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
abelard
2017-08-05 10:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by Vidcapper
Old Age Pensions are certainly better than the Workhouses that preceded
them!
the liberal and conservatives brought in old age pensions and were
working to expand them
I expected you to say that.
that's because i deal in facts...sorry, i know that annoys you
Just because they brought them in doesn't mean they were the driving
force behind their introduction. I for one cannot believe that the
Tories wouldn't have resisted their introduction tooth & nail!
what you can't believe is a factor of your religion...not
an objective fact in the real world...

the capitalist cannot sell his widgets to a person without money...
a manufacturer cannot sell what he doesn't have the capacity to
produce...

all three parties went along with improving health are after ww2

cameron served up 3 referendums, not one...

you're not coming close to making any reality based case/s
--
www.abelard.org
Vidcapper
2017-08-04 05:58:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Joe
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 15:48:44 +0100
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left
wing policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now
promoting the murder of the people who operate outside of their
political ideology.
It's been said that every time socialism has been tried it has caused
much suffering but then more socialists arise and say that all the
other socialists failed because they "didn't do it properly".
Now you know what 'doing it properly' means.
Full socialism doesn't work because it is at odds with inherent human
individuality.
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
True Blue
2017-08-04 07:22:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Full socialism doesn't work because it is at odds with inherent human
individuality.
I would have said "inherent human competitiveness", but yes, that is the core reason why it fails.
abelard
2017-08-04 09:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 4 Aug 2017 00:22:30 -0700 (PDT), True Blue
Post by True Blue
Post by Vidcapper
Full socialism doesn't work because it is at odds with inherent human
individuality.
I would have said "inherent human competitiveness", but yes, that is the core reason why it fails.
it is at core short termist...it eats the seed corn...

it encourages greed and envy...not a great foundation for
a healthy social structure
--
www.abelard.org
Basil Jet
2017-08-04 07:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Vidcapper
Full socialism doesn't work because it is at odds with inherent human
individuality.
Socialism works brilliantly. Look at all the money Fidel Castro had in
his bank account. If you think it doesn't work, you must be under the
delusion that socialism is trying to do what it says it's trying to do.
Yellow
2017-08-04 12:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Vidcapper
Full socialism doesn't work because it is at odds with inherent human
individuality.
Socialism works brilliantly. Look at all the money Fidel Castro had in
his bank account. If you think it doesn't work, you must be under the
delusion that socialism is trying to do what it says it's trying to do.
That is the reason I often prefer Tories over socialist.

The Tory - yes, I have duck house and yes, I have a moat. What the fuck
has it got to do with you?

The socialist - No, no, no, just because I live in a million pound house
does not make me well off, and no, no, no, just because my income is
over £150,000 a year, that does not make me one of those wealthy people.

I generally believe that with a Tory you know where you stand, but
socialists. Well, we have all read Animal Farm.
The Todal
2017-08-04 21:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Vidcapper
Full socialism doesn't work because it is at odds with inherent human
individuality.
Socialism works brilliantly. Look at all the money Fidel Castro had in
his bank account. If you think it doesn't work, you must be under the
delusion that socialism is trying to do what it says it's trying to do.
That is the reason I often prefer Tories over socialist.
The Tory - yes, I have duck house and yes, I have a moat. What the fuck
has it got to do with you?
You've left out "and I'm claiming public money for the upkeep of my duck
house and moat on parliamentary expenses. What the fuck has that to do
with you?"
Post by Yellow
The socialist - No, no, no, just because I live in a million pound house
does not make me well off, and no, no, no, just because my income is
over £150,000 a year, that does not make me one of those wealthy people.
In London most houses are now worth a million pounds, even the cramped
little terraced houses in Kilburn.

And most Labour politicians would readily agree that 150k per year makes
them wealthy people. Labour MPs generally survive on their MP's salary -
obviously there are some exceptions. Tory MPs generally have a few
directorships and sinecures to help to pay for nannies and au pairs and
holidays in Klosters.
Post by Yellow
I generally believe that with a Tory you know where you stand, but
socialists. Well, we have all read Animal Farm.
Corbyn does not in any way resemble Blair, who certainly did betray his
supporters and enriched himself.

As a Remainer, I regret to say that Corbyn will comply with the
referendum result and if he gets his way, take us out of both the single
market and the customs union.
Yellow
2017-08-04 22:42:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@icloud.com
says...
Post by The Todal
Post by Yellow
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Vidcapper
Full socialism doesn't work because it is at odds with inherent human
individuality.
Socialism works brilliantly. Look at all the money Fidel Castro had in
his bank account. If you think it doesn't work, you must be under the
delusion that socialism is trying to do what it says it's trying to do.
That is the reason I often prefer Tories over socialist.
The Tory - yes, I have duck house and yes, I have a moat. What the fuck
has it got to do with you?
You've left out "and I'm claiming public money for the upkeep of my duck
house and moat on parliamentary expenses. What the fuck has that to do
with you?"
Post by Yellow
The socialist - No, no, no, just because I live in a million pound house
does not make me well off, and no, no, no, just because my income is
over £150,000 a year, that does not make me one of those wealthy people.
In London most houses are now worth a million pounds, even the cramped
little terraced houses in Kilburn.
And most Labour politicians would readily agree that 150k per year makes
them wealthy people. Labour MPs generally survive on their MP's salary -
obviously there are some exceptions. Tory MPs generally have a few
directorships and sinecures to help to pay for nannies and au pairs and
holidays in Klosters.
Post by Yellow
I generally believe that with a Tory you know where you stand, but
socialists. Well, we have all read Animal Farm.
Corbyn does not in any way resemble Blair, who certainly did betray his
supporters and enriched himself.
If you really believe that then you are a deluded fool, otherwise you
are just a dishonest one.

No one becomes a politician for the "good of humanity" but because they
have an agenda and part of that agenda is personal enrichment. Be that a
free duck house or the ownership of a fuck off London house and a beyond
wildest dreams salary and pension without ever having to do a "proper
job".
Post by The Todal
As a Remainer, I regret to say that Corbyn will comply with the
referendum result and if he gets his way, take us out of both the single
market and the customs union.
abelard
2017-08-05 10:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Yellow
Post by The Todal
Corbyn does not in any way resemble Blair, who certainly did betray his
supporters and enriched himself.
If you really believe that then you are a deluded fool, otherwise you
are just a dishonest one.
yes, it is always hard to tell with a person who makes foolish
statements

of course he could also be mad....

mad, bad or sad...the source of his nonsense does not alter
the fact that his posts are mostly nonsense...

that is the bottom line
--
www.abelard.org
Brian Reay
2017-08-11 09:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Todal
Post by Yellow
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Vidcapper
Full socialism doesn't work because it is at odds with inherent human
individuality.
Socialism works brilliantly. Look at all the money Fidel Castro had in
his bank account. If you think it doesn't work, you must be under the
delusion that socialism is trying to do what it says it's trying to do.
That is the reason I often prefer Tories over socialist.
The Tory - yes, I have duck house and yes, I have a moat. What the fuck
has it got to do with you?
You've left out "and I'm claiming public money for the upkeep of my duck
house and moat on parliamentary expenses. What the fuck has that to do
with you?"
Post by Yellow
The socialist - No, no, no, just because I live in a million pound house
does not make me well off, and no, no, no, just because my income is
over £150,000 a year, that does not make me one of those wealthy people.
In London most houses are now worth a million pounds, even the cramped
little terraced houses in Kilburn.
And most Labour politicians would readily agree that 150k per year makes
them wealthy people. Labour MPs generally survive on their MP's salary -
obviously there are some exceptions.
Do you mean their salaries plus expenses?

You perhaps don't know about the infamous case of the 'tax case' Labour
politician, one of the real 'lefties'.

Nor the former leader, with the two kitchens, convenient for 'photo
shoots'.


What about Labour MPs sending their children to private schools- rather
than state schools in their constituencies?


What about the former Union leaders living in Union provided
accommodation for life, with cars etc, plus a very, very, generous
pension ? - after they ruined their members' industry.
--
Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud
Incubus
2017-08-11 10:00:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Brian Reay
Post by The Todal
Post by Yellow
Post by Basil Jet
Post by Vidcapper
Full socialism doesn't work because it is at odds with inherent human
individuality.
Socialism works brilliantly. Look at all the money Fidel Castro had in
his bank account. If you think it doesn't work, you must be under the
delusion that socialism is trying to do what it says it's trying to do.
That is the reason I often prefer Tories over socialist.
The Tory - yes, I have duck house and yes, I have a moat. What the fuck
has it got to do with you?
You've left out "and I'm claiming public money for the upkeep of my duck
house and moat on parliamentary expenses. What the fuck has that to do
with you?"
Post by Yellow
The socialist - No, no, no, just because I live in a million pound house
does not make me well off, and no, no, no, just because my income is
over £150,000 a year, that does not make me one of those wealthy people.
In London most houses are now worth a million pounds, even the cramped
little terraced houses in Kilburn.
And most Labour politicians would readily agree that 150k per year makes
them wealthy people. Labour MPs generally survive on their MP's salary -
obviously there are some exceptions.
Do you mean their salaries plus expenses?
You perhaps don't know about the infamous case of the 'tax case' Labour
politician, one of the real 'lefties'.
Nor the former leader, with the two kitchens, convenient for 'photo
shoots'.
What about Labour MPs sending their children to private schools- rather
than state schools in their constituencies?
But that was different, remember?

True Blue
2017-08-03 17:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by James Harris
I listened to the interview but thought I had misheard part of it. Ken
Livingstone appeared clearly to say that one of Venezuela's problems was
that when Chavez came to power he didn't kill all the oligarchs....
From 4:00 in
http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ken-livingstone-venezuela-should-have-followed-my-economic-advice-17080317002.
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
I was stunned by it. Still am. The casual way Livingstone said it - as
if he thought it at least an option that a new regime should kill off
the wealthiest. Not banish them. Not even appropriate their wealth. Kill
them. Still stunned!
He let his guard down, that's all. It's not surprising in the slightest.
saracene
2017-08-03 17:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by True Blue
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by James Harris
I listened to the interview but thought I had misheard part of it. Ken
Livingstone appeared clearly to say that one of Venezuela's problems was
that when Chavez came to power he didn't kill all the oligarchs....
From 4:00 in
http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ken-livingstone-venezuela-should-have-followed-my-economic-advice-17080317002.
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
I was stunned by it. Still am. The casual way Livingstone said it - as
if he thought it at least an option that a new regime should kill off
the wealthiest. Not banish them. Not even appropriate their wealth. Kill
them. Still stunned!
He let his guard down, that's all. It's not surprising in the slightest.
Most French people still revere their Revolution, and many apologise for the Reign of Terror. What's the difference?
True Blue
2017-08-03 19:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by True Blue
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by James Harris
I listened to the interview but thought I had misheard part of it. Ken
Livingstone appeared clearly to say that one of Venezuela's problems was
that when Chavez came to power he didn't kill all the oligarchs....
From 4:00 in
http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ken-livingstone-venezuela-should-have-followed-my-economic-advice-17080317002.
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
I was stunned by it. Still am. The casual way Livingstone said it - as
if he thought it at least an option that a new regime should kill off
the wealthiest. Not banish them. Not even appropriate their wealth. Kill
them. Still stunned!
He let his guard down, that's all. It's not surprising in the slightest.
Most French people still revere their Revolution, and many apologise for the Reign of Terror. What's the >difference?
None, really. Their perspective of history is a backward projection of their current insecurity, envy and sense of failure.
JNugent
2017-08-04 15:11:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
says...
Post by James Harris
I listened to the interview but thought I had misheard part of it. Ken
Livingstone appeared clearly to say that one of Venezuela's problems was
that when Chavez came to power he didn't kill all the oligarchs....
From 4:00 in
http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ken-livingstone-venezuela-should-have-followed-my-economic-advice-17080317002.
I have just seen this in one of the newspapers and could not believe
what I was reading.
I was stunned by it. Still am. The casual way Livingstone said it - as
if he thought it at least an option that a new regime should kill off
the wealthiest. Not banish them. Not even appropriate their wealth. Kill
them. Still stunned!
I, OTOH, am not.

Livingstone is, and always has been, an evil little toad of a man. All
those who espouse his policies and thinking are evil.
Post by James Harris
Post by Yellow
So not only will these lunatic people not accept that extreme left wing
policies end in starvation and death from disease, but are now promoting
the murder of the people who operate outside of their political
ideology.
Nothing new. Russia, Cuba, China, Cambodia.
Post by James Harris
It's been said that every time socialism has been tried it has caused
much suffering but then more socialists arise and say that all the other
socialists failed because they "didn't do it properly".
Post by Yellow
Coming to a Parliament near you, if Corbyn ever gets his way.
Basil Jet
2017-08-03 15:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Harris
I listened to the interview but thought I had misheard part of it. Ken
Livingstone appeared clearly to say that one of Venezuela's problems was
that when Chavez came to power he didn't kill all the oligarchs....
From 4:00 in
http://talkradio.co.uk/news/ken-livingstone-venezuela-should-have-followed-my-economic-advice-17080317002.
"200 families".... he seems to be calling for executions of complete
families down to babes in arms, like the Russian Revolution.
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