Discussion:
Syria: Turkish forces prepare to support anti-Assad rebels in Idlib
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Byker
2017-10-07 21:07:20 UTC
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Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
On a related note, he better steer clear of Sweden: http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Jonathan
2017-10-08 23:10:24 UTC
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Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
On a related note, he better steer clear of Sweden: http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~



https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Kerryn Offord
2017-10-08 23:50:22 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
On a related note, he better steer clear of Sweden: http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..

Just look at how the US shooting down an Iranian airliner was treated.
No criminal charges.
Jonathan
2017-10-09 22:49:41 UTC
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Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Post by Kerryn Offord
Just look at how the US shooting down an Iranian airliner was treated.
No criminal charges.
There is no comparison whatsoever.

For starters the US Navy ship was operating under the US flag
in international waters and, mistakenly, acted in self defense.
It was an accident, not a criminal act.

The people that shot down MH17 were irregular Russian soldiers
NOT acting under ANY FLAG, and they entered a /foreign nation/
with the express purpose of recklessly shooting down any aircraft
at all flying overhead.

They had no right to enter Ukraine let alone shoot down anything
inside Ukraine, those were all criminal acts making the
shoot down criminal too.

And Putin like any common criminal has not admitted any
involvement even though it's been shown the buks were
spirited to Ukraine from Russian territory and back again
after the shoot down, nor has he paid any reparations.

The US admitted guilt and paid the families reparations.
Putin has done none of that. Putin, like a coward, has
attempted to blame the victims for the shoot down.





s
Kerryn Offord
2017-10-09 23:17:48 UTC
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Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the
"rebels" to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to
happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Post by Kerryn Offord
Just look at how the US shooting down an Iranian airliner was treated.
No criminal charges.
There is no comparison whatsoever.
For starters the US Navy ship was operating under the US flag
in international waters and, mistakenly, acted in self defense.
It was an accident, not a criminal act.
The people that shot down MH17 were irregular Russian soldiers
NOT acting under ANY FLAG, and they entered a /foreign nation/
with the express purpose of recklessly shooting down any aircraft
at all flying overhead.
They had no right to enter Ukraine let alone shoot down anything
inside Ukraine, those were all criminal acts making the
shoot down criminal too.
And Putin like any common criminal has not admitted any
involvement even though it's been shown the buks were
spirited to Ukraine from Russian territory and back again
after the shoot down, nor has he paid any reparations.
The US admitted guilt and paid the families reparations.
Putin has done none of that. Putin, like a coward, has
attempted to blame the victims for the shoot down.
At what point did someone give the order to fire on civilian aircraft?

Unless someone actively intended to shoot down a civilian airliner, then
"no law has been broken."

And one has to ask, why would the Russians deliberately shoot down a
civilian airliner? the action fed directly into US hands (Europe was
resisting calls for sanctions against Russia right up to this point).
Jonathan
2017-10-10 23:11:52 UTC
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Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the
"rebels" to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to
happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Post by Kerryn Offord
Just look at how the US shooting down an Iranian airliner was
treated. No criminal charges.
There is no comparison whatsoever.
For starters the US Navy ship was operating under the US flag
in international waters and, mistakenly, acted in self defense.
It was an accident, not a criminal act.
The people that shot down MH17 were irregular Russian soldiers
NOT acting under ANY FLAG, and they entered a /foreign nation/
with the express purpose of recklessly shooting down any aircraft
at all flying overhead.
They had no right to enter Ukraine let alone shoot down anything
inside Ukraine, those were all criminal acts making the
shoot down criminal too.
And Putin like any common criminal has not admitted any
involvement even though it's been shown the buks were
spirited to Ukraine from Russian territory and back again
after the shoot down, nor has he paid any reparations.
The US admitted guilt and paid the families reparations.
Putin has done none of that. Putin, like a coward, has
attempted to blame the victims for the shoot down.
At what point did someone give the order to fire on civilian aircraft?
Unless someone actively intended to shoot down a civilian airliner, then
"no law has been broken."
That's a completely idiotic statement. Next time I rob a bank
if I happen to shoot the security guard by mistake, I'll just
claim I didn't intend to shoot him, and walk away free
right?

Don't be ridiculous, since I was committing a crime when I
shot him it's murder. Putin's mercenaries were committing a crime
when the crossed into a foreign nation and started shooting
down anything coming overhead. The fact they were so incompetent
they shot down an airliner by mistake in no way exonerates them.
Post by Kerryn Offord
And one has to ask, why would the Russians deliberately shoot down a
civilian airliner? the action fed directly into US hands (Europe was
resisting calls for sanctions against Russia right up to this point).
If the CIA hired a bunch of mercenaries to sneak into Iran
and shoot down some military jets, but they hit an airliner
by mistake then it's a crime because hiring mercenaries
to shoot down jets is a crime, and so is sneaking into
a foreign nation to shoot anything.

I mean you can't serious to think shooting down that
airliner isn't a crime.

If there was a war between two nations, it could be
considered an accident of war, but Putin's rebels
were not associated with any recognized nation
or army, they were paid mercenaries.

That's what makes it a crime, that was Putin's mistake.
Kerryn Offord
2017-10-11 02:45:34 UTC
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<SNIP>
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
At what point did someone give the order to fire on civilian aircraft?
Unless someone actively intended to shoot down a civilian airliner,
then "no law has been broken."
That's a completely idiotic statement. Next time I rob a bank
if I happen to shoot the security guard by mistake, I'll just
claim I didn't intend to shoot him, and walk away free
right?
***

Ah, your usual silly straw man argument..

You, as the bank robber, would personally would be guilty of the crime.
After all, you personally pulled the trigger.

However, did Putin fire off that missile? Or did some other individual?

Putin has an alibi. He wasn't in the area at the time, so it could not
have been he who fired the missile.

That leaves you needing a clear indication that Putin gave an order for
someone to fire on a civilian airliner.

lacking that, Putin can't be charged with shooting it down
Post by Jonathan
Don't be ridiculous, since I was committing a crime when I
shot him it's murder. Putin's mercenaries were committing a crime
when the crossed into a foreign nation and started shooting
down anything coming overhead. The fact they were so incompetent
they shot down an airliner by mistake in no way exonerates them.
***
Putin';s mercenaries may or may not have been committing a crime.

However, unless you have evidence that they were ordered to fire on a
civilian airliner, the shooting down of MF-17 is just an unfortunate
accident.
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
And one has to ask, why would the Russians deliberately shoot down a
civilian airliner? the action fed directly into US hands (Europe was
resisting calls for sanctions against Russia right up to this point).
If the CIA hired a bunch of mercenaries to sneak into Iran
and shoot down some military jets, but they hit an airliner
by mistake then it's a crime because hiring mercenaries
to shoot down jets is a crime, and so is sneaking into
a foreign nation to shoot anything.
***
If sneaking into a country to shoot anything, then all those Americans
in Syria are in trouble.
Post by Jonathan
I mean you can't serious to think shooting down that
airliner isn't a crime.
***
It is only a crime if there was intent. If they thought it was a
Ukrainian military aircraft, then they were just shooting at a
legitimate target.

Just the same as the Americans shooting down an Iranian airliner.
Post by Jonathan
If there was a war between two nations, it could be
considered an accident of war, but Putin's rebels
were not associated with any recognized nation
or army, they were paid mercenaries.
***
Doesn't have to be nations.. Look at Syria. Look at Afghanistan...

Although, Ukraine isn't calling it a war.. not even a civil war.
Post by Jonathan
That's what makes it a crime, that was Putin's mistake.
***
In your dreams.

For it to be a crime, you need to show intent.

For Putin to be charged with shooting down the airliner, you basically
have to be able to prove that he ordered his people to fire on an airliner.
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-11 03:09:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the
"rebels" to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to
happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Post by Kerryn Offord
Just look at how the US shooting down an Iranian airliner was
treated. No criminal charges.
There is no comparison whatsoever.
For starters the US Navy ship was operating under the US flag
in international waters and, mistakenly, acted in self defense.
It was an accident, not a criminal act.
The people that shot down MH17 were irregular Russian soldiers
NOT acting under ANY FLAG, and they entered a /foreign nation/
with the express purpose of recklessly shooting down any aircraft
at all flying overhead.
They had no right to enter Ukraine let alone shoot down anything
inside Ukraine, those were all criminal acts making the
shoot down criminal too.
And Putin like any common criminal has not admitted any
involvement even though it's been shown the buks were
spirited to Ukraine from Russian territory and back again
after the shoot down, nor has he paid any reparations.
The US admitted guilt and paid the families reparations.
Putin has done none of that. Putin, like a coward, has
attempted to blame the victims for the shoot down.
At what point did someone give the order to fire on civilian aircraft?
Unless someone actively intended to shoot down a civilian airliner, then
"no law has been broken."
That's a completely idiotic statement.
It does, however, have the virtue of being correct, unlike almost all
of your raving about, well, almost anything.
Post by Jonathan
Next time I rob a bank
if I happen to shoot the security guard by mistake, I'll just
claim I didn't intend to shoot him, and walk away free
right?
And you once again demonstrate that you don't know the difference
between domestic civilian law and the laws of warfare.
Post by Jonathan
Don't be ridiculous, since I was committing a crime when I
shot him it's murder.
Correct.
Post by Jonathan
Putin's mercenaries were committing a crime
when the crossed into a foreign nation ...
Incorrect.
Post by Jonathan
... and started shooting down anything coming overhead.
You're making this up. You have no way to know who fired that
missile.
Post by Jonathan
The fact they were so incompetent
they shot down an airliner by mistake in no way exonerates them.
Well, yeah, it does.
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
And one has to ask, why would the Russians deliberately shoot down a
civilian airliner? the action fed directly into US hands (Europe was
resisting calls for sanctions against Russia right up to this point).
If the CIA hired a bunch of mercenaries to sneak into Iran
and shoot down some military jets, but they hit an airliner
by mistake then it's a crime because hiring mercenaries
to shoot down jets is a crime, and so is sneaking into
a foreign nation to shoot anything.
Irrelevant to the situation under discussion.
Post by Jonathan
I mean you can't serious to think shooting down that
airliner isn't a crime.
I mean you can't serious to be this ignorant.
Post by Jonathan
If there was a war between two nations, it could be
considered an accident of war, but Putin's rebels
were not associated with any recognized nation
or army, they were paid mercenaries.
Evidence they were 'paid mercenaries'? Evidence they weren't invited
by local authorities? Evidence that Russians and not Ukrainians fired
the missile? Evidence that you have more than two brain cells?
Post by Jonathan
That's what makes it a crime, that was Putin's mistake.
Nope. You're wrong. Again.
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-10 01:18:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Just look at how the US shooting down an Iranian airliner was treated.
No criminal charges.
There is no comparison whatsoever.
And why is that?
Post by Jonathan
For starters the US Navy ship was operating under the US flag
in international waters and, mistakenly, acted in self defense.
It was an accident, not a criminal act.
The people that shot down MH17 were irregular Russian soldiers
NOT acting under ANY FLAG, ...
You're making that up.
Post by Jonathan
and they entered a /foreign nation/
If they were indeed Russians and not Ukrainians (which I consider more
likely), they were invited in by local authorities.
Post by Jonathan
with the express purpose of recklessly shooting down any aircraft
at all flying overhead.
And you're making THAT up, too.
Post by Jonathan
They had no right to enter Ukraine let alone shoot down anything
inside Ukraine, those were all criminal acts making the
shoot down criminal too.
You're delusional.
Post by Jonathan
And Putin like any common criminal has not admitted any
involvement even though it's been shown the buks were
spirited to Ukraine from Russian territory and back again
after the shoot down, nor has he paid any reparations.
The US admitted guilt and paid the families reparations.
Putin has done none of that. Putin, like a coward, has
attempted to blame the victims for the shoot down.
Because Putin doesn't HAVE any 'guilt' in this case. Whoever shot it
down, they weren't under his control.

You really should seek treatment for this tendency to launch into
raving lunacy and vomit forth delusional tirades.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
Jonathan
2017-10-10 23:14:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.

That's not war, it's called terrorism idiot.




s
Kerryn Offord
2017-10-11 02:54:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
That's not war, it's called terrorism idiot.
Like the US sending people into Afghanistan with Stingers. It was
considered perfectly reasonable at the time.

If you mean civilian jets.. then.. If they went in with the intent of
shooting down civilian aircraft.. that would be terrorism...

But there is the small matter of proving intent... If they were shooting
at military aircraft and a civilian aircraft gets shot down accidentally
(why would they want to shoot down a civilian aircraft?) due to the fog
of war, then it is "just" an unfortunate accident.

It is not an act of terrorism.. Nor would it have been an illegal act...
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-11 03:11:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
Post by Jonathan
That's not war, it's called terrorism idiot.
That's not discussion, it's called raving idiocy havering loon.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
Jonathan
2017-10-11 23:35:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?


They have videos...


MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html



https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/world/asia/malaysia-air-flight-mh17-russia-ukraine-missile.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/03/russian-army-supplied-mh17-missile-report-claims/


Netherlands: We will bring MH17 killers to justice here
http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/05/europe/netherlands-mh17/index.html




Show me the link that says it's ok to pay mercenaries to
infiltrate a foreign nation and shoot down jets.

I'm waiting!

You can't because everyone knows it's illegal, comrade Fred.
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
That's not war, it's called terrorism idiot.
That's not discussion, it's called raving idiocy havering loon.
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-11 23:53:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians. Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
--
"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
-- Mark Twain
Jonathan
2017-10-13 00:41:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians. Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.

No!

So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.

Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?




s
Kerryn Offord
2017-10-13 05:58:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by
demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians.  Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Not very good if they are trying to charge Putin with ordering the
shooting down of MF17.
Jonathan
2017-10-13 11:25:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by
demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians.  Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Not very good if they are trying to charge Putin with ordering the
shooting down of MF17.
Does anyone really believe Putin did not know and approve
of sending that Buk into Urkraine? If not I have a bridge
or three you might be interested in buying.

And those 'rebels' would need help operating those advanced
systems, so Russian troops certainly were there showing them
how to pull the trigger. They have radio intercepts of the
rebels talking to their Russian handler minutes after the
shoot down.
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-13 13:31:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians.  Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Not very good if they are trying to charge Putin with ordering the
shooting down of MF17.
Does anyone really believe Putin did not know and approve
of sending that Buk into Urkraine?
Irrelevant, since that's not a criminal charge.
Post by Jonathan
If not I have a bridge
or three you might be interested in buying.
But if you sell your bridge where will you live?
Post by Jonathan
And those 'rebels' would need help operating those advanced
systems, so Russian troops certainly were there showing them
how to pull the trigger.
No. Those systems are quite easy to use and the rebels already had
experience with them.
Post by Jonathan
They have radio intercepts of the
rebels talking to their Russian handler minutes after the
shoot down.
Even if true and even if we accept your silly characterization of
"Russian handler", so what?
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
Jonathan
2017-10-14 13:13:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the
"rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians.  Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Not very good if they are trying to charge Putin with ordering the
shooting down of MF17.
Does anyone really believe Putin did not know and approve
of sending that Buk into Urkraine?
Irrelevant, since that's not a criminal charge.
Funny how you've failed to show a cite where
it's legal to give buks to mercenaries and
send them into a foreign nation to shoot
down jets.

If the CIA hired Blackwater to sneak stingers
into Iran to shoot down jets, would that be
legal too?

You'd excuse Putin for anything at all, comrade.

Are you a Russian paid troll?


s
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-14 16:19:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the
"rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians.  Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Not very good if they are trying to charge Putin with ordering the
shooting down of MF17.
Does anyone really believe Putin did not know and approve
of sending that Buk into Urkraine?
Irrelevant, since that's not a criminal charge.
Funny how you've failed to show a cite where
it's legal to give buks to mercenaries and
send them into a foreign nation to shoot
down jets.
Funny how you stupidly think that laws codify what is legal as opposed
to what is illegal. Please show a cite where it's legal for you to
post to Usenet NEWS.
Post by Jonathan
If the CIA hired Blackwater to sneak stingers
into Iran to shoot down jets, would that be
legal too?
Yes, it would. In point of fact, we did almost exactly that in
Afghanistan against the Russians.
Post by Jonathan
You'd excuse Putin for anything at all, comrade.
Again, I'm not your 'comrade' and never will be. You see, I think
facts and the truth matter while you ... don't.
Post by Jonathan
Are you a Russian paid troll?
Are you a lying delusional cunt?
--
"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of
your hat; you take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear."
-- Mark Twain
Kerryn Offord
2017-10-13 21:48:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians.  Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Not very good if they are trying to charge Putin with ordering the
shooting down of MF17.
Does anyone really believe Putin did not know and approve
of sending that Buk into Urkraine? If not I have a bridge
or three you might be interested in buying.
And those 'rebels' would need help operating those advanced
systems, so Russian troops certainly were there showing them
how to pull the trigger. They have radio intercepts of the
rebels talking to their Russian handler minutes after the
shoot down.
Even if Putin personally ordered that Buk into Ukraine, that does not
prove he specifically ordered it to fire at civilian air craft.

As the Ukrainians were using combat aircraft against the rebels, it
would most likely have been sent to provide air defence for the rebels
against military aircraft.

that is a legitimate action.

Oh, as for those recordings.. IIRC, they make it pretty clear they
thought they had shot down a military aircraft.

making teh shoot down of a civilian aircraft (flying over a known war
zone) an "accident", not a deliberate action.
Jonathan
2017-10-14 13:20:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered
the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians.  Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Not very good if they are trying to charge Putin with ordering the
shooting down of MF17.
Does anyone really believe Putin did not know and approve
of sending that Buk into Urkraine? If not I have a bridge
or three you might be interested in buying.
And those 'rebels' would need help operating those advanced
systems, so Russian troops certainly were there showing them
how to pull the trigger. They have radio intercepts of the
rebels talking to their Russian handler minutes after the
shoot down.
Even if Putin personally ordered that Buk into Ukraine, that does not
prove he specifically ordered it to fire at civilian air craft.
Even though I handed the armed robbers that sawed off shotgun
that doesn't prove I wanted them to shoot the teenager
behind the counter.

So I did nothing illegal?

There's nothing legal about giving mercenaries buks
to enter a foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Since they were acting illegally to begin with
any accident is also illegal.

Just as a reckless/drunk driver is responsible for anyone
he should run over by accident.
Post by Kerryn Offord
As the Ukrainians were using combat aircraft against the rebels, it
would most likely have been sent to provide air defence for the rebels
against military aircraft.
that is a legitimate action.
Oh, as for those recordings.. IIRC, they make it pretty clear they
thought they had shot down a military aircraft.
making teh shoot down of a civilian aircraft (flying over a known war
zone) an "accident", not a deliberate action.
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-13 13:21:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians. Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
I can, however, show you videos of him after the fact admitting he was
behind it and it worked much better than they expected. So once again
you're a lying idiot.
Post by Jonathan
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Who are they prosecuting and for what, Jonthy? It's not BEING
prosecuted. It WILL BE prosecuted in the Netherlands if they ever
figure out who to charge and what to charge them with. I figure the
odds of anyone actually being charged with anything are low, the odds
of anyone being charged with war crimes are near zero, and the odds of
Putin being charged with anything are zero. And you have to charge
them in order to find them guilty, so I figure the odds of anyone ever
being found guilty of anything are near zero and if anyone ever is it
will be "person or persons unknown" and the charge will be something
like "wanton disregard". That's the kind of charge that gets leveled
when there's no crime but someone wants to prosecute anyway.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn
Jonathan
2017-10-14 14:00:21 UTC
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Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians. Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
I can, however, show you videos of him after the fact admitting he was
behind it and it worked much better than they expected. So once again
you're a lying idiot.
~ Using your ignorant logic ~

But it's a perfectly legal 'act of war' to fly jets
into buildings, he might have thought the towers
were full of soldiers, right comrade Fred?

Just as you say it's perfectly legal to give
mercenaries buks and send them into a foreign
nation to shoot down any and all jets flying
overhead.
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Who are they prosecuting and for what, Jonthy? It's not BEING
prosecuted. It WILL BE prosecuted in the Netherlands if they ever
figure out who to charge and what to charge them with. I figure the
odds of anyone actually being charged with anything are low, the odds
of anyone being charged with war crimes are near zero, and the odds of
Putin being charged with anything are zero. And you have to charge
them in order to find them guilty, so I figure the odds of anyone ever
being found guilty of anything are near zero and if anyone ever is it
will be "person or persons unknown" and the charge will be something
like "wanton disregard". That's the kind of charge that gets leveled
when there's no crime but someone wants to prosecute anyway.
Paid mercenaries entering a foreign nation and shooting down a
passenger jet is no crime?

You've completely lost any credibility to make such a claim.





RESEARCH ARTICLE
Navigating the Legal Horizon: Lawyering the MH17
Disaster



The US has implicated Russia for its involvement
in the MH17 crash, and sanctions have been imposed
by both Russia and Western States

Article 1 of the 1971 Montreal Convention highlights
that any person who ‘destroys an aircraft in service or
causes damage to such an aircraft which renders it
incapable of flight or which is likely to endanger
its safety in flight’ commits a criminal offence.


Central to any legal or diplomatic accountability remedy
will be establishing the facts regarding the extent to
which Russian Federation military and/or civilian officials
directed, trained, equipped or controlled
separatist forces in Eastern Ukraine.

2. Russia’s Obligations under the Civil Aviation Conventions

Russia’s obligations under the civil aviation conventions will
differ according to who actually committed the act of shooting
down Flight MH17. If evidence shows that Russian State agents
were somehow involved in shooting down Flight MH17, Russia
is accountable because acts of its State organs are attributable
to the State under Article 4 of the Articles of State Responsibility.

If evidence shows that rebels (or any other non-State groups)
shot down Flight MH17, the extent of the relationship between
these rebels and Russia (if such existed at all), will determine
whether these acts are attributable to Russia


If evidence shows that Russia can be held responsible for
providing the weapon that was used to shootdown Flight MH17,
this may amount to an additional violation of international law.
110 Russia has not ratified the Arms Trade Treaty that imposes
certain obligations upon States when supplying weapons to
non-State actors. However, if it can be shown that the
separatists have committed a war crime by violating IHL,
should the Russian State be attributable for having provided
or transported the weapon, they may have provided a
‘significant contribution’ to the rebels’ ability to
commit such a crime.

With regard to attributing the actual firing of the missile
to Russia, this will depend on whether evidence meets the
standards of attributability to indicate a relationship between
those that fired the missile and Russia. The same can be said
for the delivering of the missile to the principal perpetrators



Should evidence show that the perpetrators’ acts are attributable
to Russia (because State agents were involved or effective control
was exercised over non-State actors), it can be argued that Russia
would have violated Article 3bis of the Chicago Convention.
Article 3bis of the Chicago Convention provides that
‘the Contracting States recognise that every State must refrain
from resorting to the use of weapons against civilian aircraft
in flight’,91 unless in accordance with a State’s right to
self-defence, which is not a viable argument in the situation
of MH17.


For example, Bellingcat, a team of investigative journalists,
studied the situation on the ground for over a year and
compiled a report containing the names of 20 Russian nationals
they allege were involved in the downing.

On 28 September 2016, the JIT announced that they had
acquired sufficient evidence to uphold in court that
the weapon system was a BUK missile of Russian origin,
which was transported over Russian territory and into
Ukraine days before MH17 was brought down, that this
weapon was transported back into Russian territory days
after, that the location from where this missile was launched
was under control of pro-Russian separatists at the time of
the crash, and that they had identified a hundred individuals
that were involved in one way or another in what happened to MH17.



C. The Legal Qualification of Downing Flight MH17 under Criminal Law

1. Qualification as ‘War Crime’

The downing of MH17 may constitute a war crime. This is a
crime under the jurisdiction of the ICC as well
as most domestic legal systems, including Ukraine
and the Netherlands. In order for conduct to
potentially qualify as war crime, the situation in which the
conduct occurs has to qualify as an armed conflict.
While not binding on the ICC or other judges, and subject to
their own judicial determination, the International Committee
of the Red Cross has made a legal assessment that the
situation in Ukraine constitutes at the very least a
non-international armed conflict.24 Moreover, if it is
proven that Russian military were actively engaged in the
conflict in Eastern Ukraine, it may well qualify as an
international armed conflict.

The ICC is currently examining the involvement of Russian State
agents into the situation, for the purposes of assessing
whether it qualifies as international armed conflict.25
Whether the conflict qualifies as internal or an international
armed conflict affects the specific qualification of the
crime. Depending on the nature of the conflict and conduct,
the alleged crimes that may have been committed in relation
to downing MH17 include wilful killing under Article 8
(a)(i), intentionally directing attacks against civilians
under 8(b)(i), murder under Article 8(c)(i), and
‘intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population
as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part
in hostilities’ under Article 8(e)(i).

The key principle of IHL, the body of law that governs what
conduct constitutes as a war crime, is the
principle of distinction. This principle requires that a
combatant distinguishes between military and civilian
targets.

While other combatants are lawful targets, civilians who do
not partake in hostilities are not. Moreover, the
precautionary principle provides that parties to a
conflict must take all feasible precautions to
protect the civilian population and civilian objects
under their control against the effects of attacks.

It follows that IHL requires parties to the conflict to make
an effort to avoid civilian casualties from their otherwise
lawful use of armed measures. Therefore, if those that were
involved in firing the BUK missile have not taken
such precautionary measures to identify the target as a
legitimate military objective before launching the
missile, they may be guilty of committing a war crime.

The ICC’s Rome Statute as well as domestic criminal systems
require proof of knowledge and intent.

The clearest example of knowledge and intent is if the
attackers intended to kill civilians. If, for example, those
responsible believed the plane was part of the Ukrainian
air force, the conduct may not constitute a war crime
(although it can still qualify as murder under domestic law)


Moreover, in addition to prosecuting under the International
Crimes Act, individuals may also be prosecuted under the
(regular) Dutch Criminal Code (DCC). Article 168 DCC reads
that any person who intentionally and unlawfully causes an
aircraft to crash shall be liable for life imprisonment or
imprisonment not exceeding thirty years if it causes
someone’s death.31



Article 2 ECHR provides for a number of legal obligations that
Russia may have violated. Whether and to what extent this is
the case and can be proven in a court of law, remains to be seen
and, as in the previous discussion on State responsibility,
mostly depends on the role Russia may have had or not had in
relation to those involved in downing MH17.

The highest responsibility would exist if Russian State agents
were involved, for instance if military were complicit in
launching the BUK missile. Article 2(2) ECHR permits the
use of lethal force when absolutely necessary, and thus
‘strictly proportionate’ to achieve a legitimate aim.141

Where an individual has been killed by State agents, that State
must show ‘the absolute necessity’ of any killing, not only
in respect of the actions of the agents who actually carried
out the killing, but in respect of ‘all the surrounding
circumstances’, including the planning, control and organisation
of the operation.142 The ECtHR has also found that
the absence of ‘proper training and instructions’ in the use
of firearms for the police, can be a contributing fac-tor
leading to a violation of the duty under Article 2 to protect
the right to life ‘by law’.143 This would likewise
apply to the use of a BUK missile.


3. Obligations for Acts of Non-State Agents

Russia may also be held responsible for the unlawful actions
of non-State actors (of whatever nationality), provided
that a sufficiently ‘close link’ or relationship is
established between the actions of the non-State
agent and the State in question (Russia)


file:///C:/Users/jonathan/Pictures/Syrian%20Casualties/368-986-1-PB.pdf




s
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-14 16:36:06 UTC
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Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Kerryn Offord
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine. Maybe one day
they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
https://frontnews.eu/news/en/13820/Foreign-ministers-of-5-countries-signed-Memorandum-to-investigate-plane-crash-of-MN17
Unless they can find evidence that Putin personally ordered the "rebels"
to fire upon a civilian airliner, then nothing is going to happen..
That's total bullshit. If I were to hand some criminal
a sawed off shotgun then told them to go into a liquor
store and rob it, and the robbers shot the poor kid
behind the counter, I would be guilty of murder
just as much as those that pulled the trigger.
Congratulations on once again exposing your ignorance by demonstrating
that you don't know the difference between domestic robbery laws and
the rules of armed conflict.
Show me the rules of war that allows a nation to pay
mercenaries, give then buks, and have them enter a
foreign nation and shoot down jets.
Show me any evidence that any of that happened.
How many links do you want, comrade Fred?
They have videos...
MH17: How investigators were able to prove rebels shot down
plane with missile from Russia
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-russia-rebels-buk-missile-evidence-how-investigators-able-prove-ukraine-vladimir-putin-a7335621.html
So fired by Ukrainians, not Russians. Thank you for showing that you
indeed are making things up.
Ya Fred, and the 9/11 jets were piloted by Saudis, so that
clears Osama, right? Can you show me a video of Osama
instructing them to fly those jets into the towers.
No!
So he's snow white by your twisted Putin lovin' logic.
I can, however, show you videos of him after the fact admitting he was
behind it and it worked much better than they expected. So once again
you're a lying idiot.
~ Using your ignorant logic ~
Thank you for demonstrating that you think logic is "ignorant". We
can put 'logic' in the basket with 'truth' as one of the things you
simply refuse to let limit your delusional raving.
Post by Jonathan
But it's a perfectly legal 'act of war' to fly jets
into buildings, he might have thought the towers
were full of soldiers, right comrade Fred?
No, Dipshit Jonthy.
Post by Jonathan
Just as you say it's perfectly legal to give
mercenaries buks and send them into a foreign
nation to shoot down any and all jets flying
overhead.
So because shooting at paper targets is legal, if we follow Jonthy's
lying illogic it is also legal to shoot at random people.
Post by Jonathan
Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Fact is MH17 was to the Netherlands like 9/11 was
to us, and it's being prosecuted in the Netherlands
so what do you think the odds are of a guilty verdict?
Who are they prosecuting and for what, Jonthy? It's not BEING
prosecuted. It WILL BE prosecuted in the Netherlands if they ever
figure out who to charge and what to charge them with. I figure the
odds of anyone actually being charged with anything are low, the odds
of anyone being charged with war crimes are near zero, and the odds of
Putin being charged with anything are zero. And you have to charge
them in order to find them guilty, so I figure the odds of anyone ever
being found guilty of anything are near zero and if anyone ever is it
will be "person or persons unknown" and the charge will be something
like "wanton disregard". That's the kind of charge that gets leveled
when there's no crime but someone wants to prosecute anyway.
Paid mercenaries entering a foreign nation and shooting down a
passenger jet is no crime?
It depends. In this case, no, just as the USS Vincennes shooting down
a passenger jet was not a crime.
Post by Jonathan
You've completely lost any credibility to make such a claim.
Your avoidance of the questions is noted. You stand revealed once
again as a liar.
Post by Jonathan
RESEARCH ARTICLE
Navigating the Legal Horizon: Lawyering the MH17
Disaster
The US has implicated Russia for its involvement
in the MH17 crash, and sanctions have been imposed
by both Russia and Western States
Article 1 of the 1971 Montreal Convention highlights
that any person who ‘destroys an aircraft in service or
causes damage to such an aircraft which renders it
incapable of flight or which is likely to endanger
its safety in flight’ commits a criminal offence.
I note you are selectively quoting. Note that the Article requires
"unlawfully and intentionally". In other words, the Article requires
that the actor KNOW that the aircraft is a commercial airliner. Nice
try at the lie, though.

<snip long JonthySpew predicated on his lie>
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
Byker
2017-10-09 03:53:43 UTC
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Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17 his troops shot down
over Ukraine. Maybe one day they'll both be able to chat between their
side by side jail cells~
Or he'll be "accidently" shot down by his generals. It's happened before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_902
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-09 07:45:40 UTC
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Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
On a related note, he better steer clear of Sweden: http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine.
Just like Trump was going to be impeached and thrown out of office
"any week now" six months ago? There's no evidence that they were
'his troops', Jonathan, but I know the truth matters little to you.

I thought you were the rah rah boy for the FSA. Now you're saying
they're a tool of Turkey and agreeing that Ergodan is a war criminal?
--
"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the
soul with evil."
-- Socrates
Kerryn Offord
2017-10-09 23:22:22 UTC
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Post by Fred J. McCall
Post by Jonathan
Post by Byker
Ergodan is launching a major operation with the
anti-Assad Free Syrian army to take Idlib and
it's province from Islamic radicals, and this
is with the blessing of Putin.
On a related note, he better steer clear of Sweden: http://tiny.cc/hrc5ny
Sooner or later Putin will be charged with the MH17
his troops shot down over Ukraine.
Just like Trump was going to be impeached and thrown out of office
"any week now" six months ago? There's no evidence that they were
'his troops', Jonathan, but I know the truth matters little to you.
I thought you were the rah rah boy for the FSA. Now you're saying
they're a tool of Turkey and agreeing that Ergodan is a war criminal?
Even if they were Russian troops.. unless there was a clear instruction
given by Putin to shoot down a civilian airliner he can't be charged
with it.

Just like the POTUS can't be charged with things the US military do that
he did not specifically order (Not sure about the CIA and torture... did
Bush give that order, or was his order "liberally interpreted"?)
Fred J. McCall
2017-10-10 01:20:45 UTC
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Post by Kerryn Offord
Just like the POTUS can't be charged with things the US military do that
he did not specifically order (Not sure about the CIA and torture... did
Bush give that order, or was his order "liberally interpreted"?)
It was authorized out of the White House and they did legal studies to
support it.
--
"Most people don't realize it, but ninety percent of morality is based
on comfort. Incinerate hundreds of people from thirty thousand feet
up and you'll sleep like a baby afterward. Kill one person with a
bayonet and your dreams will never be sweet again."
-- John Rain, "Rain Storm"
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