Discussion:
May's choice to effectively not leave the EU
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Mark, Devon
2017-12-03 05:55:48 UTC
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May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-

1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.

2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.

3) Regain her position as PM, with authority and respect. She'd have respect from her party and respect from the people.

For too long she's been trying to appease her own party. Yeah this might all lead to major Tory party splits.....but the Tory party almost needs that. May might, at least, now save the UK from Brexit and gain respect as the PM that saved the UK from the massive mistake her predecessor got us into.
Col
2017-12-03 07:29:41 UTC
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Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
e'
Unfortunately that stupid idea is the 'will of the people', a decision
arrived at in a democratically held referendum.
The only way it could reasonably be overturned would be to hold another
referendum, probably on the terms of the deal (if any). There could be
an option to stay in. Of course this wouldn't be feasible if
negotiations went right down to the wire and there wouldn't be enough
time to organise a referendum prior to the leaving date.
Post by Mark, Devon
3) Regain her position as PM, with authority and respect. She'd have respect from her party and respect from the people.
For too long she's been trying to appease her own party. Yeah this might all lead to major Tory party splits.....but the Tory party almost needs that. May might, at least, now save the UK from Brexit and gain respect as the PM that saved the UK from the massive mistake her predecessor got us into.
--
Col
James Harris
2017-12-03 12:31:24 UTC
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Post by Col
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
e'
Unfortunately that stupid idea is the 'will of the people', a decision
arrived at in a democratically held referendum.
The only way it could reasonably be overturned would be to hold another
referendum, probably on the terms of the deal (if any). There could be
an option to stay in. Of course this wouldn't be feasible if
negotiations went right down to the wire and there wouldn't be enough
time to organise a referendum prior to the leaving date.
Even the suggestion of such a referendum is infeasible. If the EU
thought we were to choose between "the deal" and Remain they would have
every reason to make "the deal" a bad one. Um, let me see ... do we make
it easy for the cash cow to leave...?

Those calling for such a referendum will be aware that it's a trap but
it would be good to see more politicians point that out.
--
James Harris
MM
2017-12-03 16:09:26 UTC
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Post by Col
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
e'
Unfortunately that stupid idea is the 'will of the people', a decision
arrived at in a democratically held referendum.
The only way it could reasonably be overturned would be to hold another
referendum, probably on the terms of the deal (if any). There could be
an option to stay in. Of course this wouldn't be feasible if
negotiations went right down to the wire and there wouldn't be enough
time to organise a referendum prior to the leaving date.
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.

There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.

MM
James Harris
2017-12-03 17:16:17 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Col
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
e'
Unfortunately that stupid idea is the 'will of the people', a decision
arrived at in a democratically held referendum.
The only way it could reasonably be overturned would be to hold another
referendum, probably on the terms of the deal (if any). There could be
an option to stay in. Of course this wouldn't be feasible if
negotiations went right down to the wire and there wouldn't be enough
time to organise a referendum prior to the leaving date.
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Your appeal to legality is interesting, MM. You claim that the
referendum has no legal effect and so should not be seen as binding. And
yet in another post you think the UK should pay the money they EU wants,
even where we have no legal obligation to do so.

So which it it? Should the letter of the law be applied or not...?
--
James Harris
Ophelia
2017-12-06 16:19:44 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Col
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all
of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ,
and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership
challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots
on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid
idea.
e'
Unfortunately that stupid idea is the 'will of the people', a decision
arrived at in a democratically held referendum.
The only way it could reasonably be overturned would be to hold another
referendum, probably on the terms of the deal (if any). There could be
an option to stay in. Of course this wouldn't be feasible if
negotiations went right down to the wire and there wouldn't be enough
time to organise a referendum prior to the leaving date.
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Your appeal to legality is interesting, MM. You claim that the
referendum has no legal effect and so should not be seen as binding. And
yet in another post you think the UK should pay the money they EU wants,
even where we have no legal obligation to do so.

So which it it? Should the letter of the law be applied or not...?

James Harris

==

Very good question. I will be interested to hear the response.
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
James Harris
2017-12-06 17:52:54 UTC
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...
Post by Ophelia
Post by James Harris
Post by MM
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Your appeal to legality is interesting, MM. You claim that the
referendum has no legal effect and so should not be seen as binding. And
yet in another post you think the UK should pay the money they EU wants,
even where we have no legal obligation to do so.
So which it it? Should the letter of the law be applied or not...?
James Harris
==
Very good question. I will be interested to hear the response.
:-) So will I - though I suspect the real answer is than MM changes his
preference on legality from topic to topic according to whichever is
worse for the UK!
--
James Harris
James Hammerton
2017-12-06 18:04:36 UTC
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Post by James Harris
...
Post by James Harris
Post by MM
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Your appeal to legality is interesting, MM. You claim that the
referendum has no legal effect and so should not be seen as binding. And
yet in another post you think the UK should pay the money they EU wants,
even where we have no legal obligation to do so.
So which it it? Should the letter of the law be applied or not...?
James Harris
==
Very good question.  I will be interested to hear the response.
:-) So will I - though I suspect the real answer is than MM changes his
preference on legality from topic to topic according to whichever is
worse for the UK!
Be fair, it might be according to what's best for the EU...

Regards,

James
--
James Hammerton
http://jhammerton.wordpress.com
http://www.magnacartaplus.com/
MM
2017-12-07 17:01:03 UTC
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On Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:04:36 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by James Harris
...
Post by James Harris
Post by MM
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Your appeal to legality is interesting, MM. You claim that the
referendum has no legal effect and so should not be seen as binding. And
yet in another post you think the UK should pay the money they EU wants,
even where we have no legal obligation to do so.
So which it it? Should the letter of the law be applied or not...?
James Harris
==
Very good question.  I will be interested to hear the response.
:-) So will I - though I suspect the real answer is than MM changes his
preference on legality from topic to topic according to whichever is
worse for the UK!
Be fair, it might be according to what's best for the EU...
Well, to be fair, that is the EU's only concern. We're not. We're
leaving. We did it. Blame the British for this huge SNAFU.

MM
MM
2017-12-07 16:59:34 UTC
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On Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:16:17 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
Post by MM
Post by Col
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
e'
Unfortunately that stupid idea is the 'will of the people', a decision
arrived at in a democratically held referendum.
The only way it could reasonably be overturned would be to hold another
referendum, probably on the terms of the deal (if any). There could be
an option to stay in. Of course this wouldn't be feasible if
negotiations went right down to the wire and there wouldn't be enough
time to organise a referendum prior to the leaving date.
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Your appeal to legality is interesting, MM. You claim that the
referendum has no legal effect and so should not be seen as binding. And
yet in another post you think the UK should pay the money they EU wants,
even where we have no legal obligation to do so.
Then why do all Brexiter Tory MPs constantly say that Britain will
abide by its legal obligations?
Post by James Harris
So which it it? Should the letter of the law be applied or not...?
Do you want me to teach your gran how to suck eggs?

MM
finally ditched mimo
2017-12-07 17:50:44 UTC
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Post by MM
On Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:16:17 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
Post by MM
Post by Col
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all
of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ,
and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership
challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots
on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid
idea.
e'
Unfortunately that stupid idea is the 'will of the people', a decision
arrived at in a democratically held referendum.
The only way it could reasonably be overturned would be to hold another
referendum, probably on the terms of the deal (if any). There could be
an option to stay in. Of course this wouldn't be feasible if
negotiations went right down to the wire and there wouldn't be enough
time to organise a referendum prior to the leaving date.
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Your appeal to legality is interesting, MM. You claim that the
referendum has no legal effect and so should not be seen as binding. And
yet in another post you think the UK should pay the money they EU wants,
even where we have no legal obligation to do so.
Then why do all Brexiter Tory MPs constantly say that Britain will
abide by its legal obligations?
Post by James Harris
So which it it? Should the letter of the law be applied or not...?
Do you want me to teach your gran how to suck eggs?
MM
You can try with both of my grans, but you may have trouble with both of
them, as one will be quite rotten by now - having died in 1939; and the other
was cremated a few decades later.
James Harris
2017-12-08 09:46:14 UTC
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Post by MM
On Sun, 3 Dec 2017 17:16:17 +0000, James Harris
Post by James Harris
Post by MM
Post by Col
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
e'
Unfortunately that stupid idea is the 'will of the people', a decision
arrived at in a democratically held referendum.
The only way it could reasonably be overturned would be to hold another
referendum, probably on the terms of the deal (if any). There could be
an option to stay in. Of course this wouldn't be feasible if
negotiations went right down to the wire and there wouldn't be enough
time to organise a referendum prior to the leaving date.
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Your appeal to legality is interesting, MM. You claim that the
referendum has no legal effect and so should not be seen as binding. And
yet in another post you think the UK should pay the money they EU wants,
even where we have no legal obligation to do so.
Then why do all Brexiter Tory MPs constantly say that Britain will
abide by its legal obligations?
Maybe because we do have some legal obligations - which we do. But they
don't add up to £40bn.
Post by MM
Post by James Harris
So which it it? Should the letter of the law be applied or not...?
Do you want me to teach your gran how to suck eggs?
I only ask why you are not consistent on your appeals to the law.
--
James Harris
Bernd Laschner
2017-12-03 20:06:34 UTC
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Post by MM
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the
referendum result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Since the UK triggered Article 50, there ist no unilateral way back.

-> >
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_50_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union#Provisions


HTH


Bernd
--
Haie am Hafen - Kein E-Center am Hansaring!
https://www.facebook.com/haie.am.hafen/?fref=ts
Rettet den Hansaring - vor Gentrifizierung
https://www.facebook.com/groups/985767428154940/?fref=ts
m***@btopenworld.com
2017-12-03 21:18:24 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by Col
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
e'
Unfortunately that stupid idea is the 'will of the people', a decision
arrived at in a democratically held referendum.
The only way it could reasonably be overturned would be to hold another
referendum, probably on the terms of the deal (if any). There could be
an option to stay in. Of course this wouldn't be feasible if
negotiations went right down to the wire and there wouldn't be enough
time to organise a referendum prior to the leaving date.
The "will of the people" has NO legal effect. None. Nada. The
sovereign parliament of the UK can decide by vote that the referendum
result be ignored and Article 50 rescinded.
There is no legal obstacle to this being done. None. Nada.
Except that one day this "sovereign Parliament" will be standing for re-election", You don't seriously believe that 7.4m voters can be quietly put back in the box like tin soldiers do you?

Trouble is that when you defy the force of democracy something less pleasant and undesirable tends to fill the vacuum. Fortunately this country is ingrained with the notion which is why it tends to be respected by most.
Mark, Devon
2017-12-03 21:21:46 UTC
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A second referendum is on the cards now, I reckon. The second won't be binding, just like the first isn't....it's really up to our parliament to decide what to do, I'm sure you will agree.
m***@btopenworld.com
2017-12-03 09:47:41 UTC
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Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
3) Regain her position as PM, with authority and respect. She'd have respect from her party and respect from the people.
For too long she's been trying to appease her own party. Yeah this might all lead to major Tory party splits.....but the Tory party almost needs that. May might, at least, now save the UK from Brexit and gain respect as the PM that saved the UK from the massive mistake her predecessor got us into.
The ECJ will never again hold writ in this country no matter what the Telegraph or anyone else says. That would be a total negation of anyone's independence. Hope fully the ECJ and the Irish matter will finally lead to the breakdown of the talks and pave the way towards independence and trade with Europe on WTO terms.

That would be the best settlement for the UK at this juncture.

I cannot understand for the life of me as to why you people want to remain shackled to the EU and trade on such disadvantageous terms? Why do you want to pay for the privilege of a trading deficit?

Why do you want *your* laws to be decided in "Brussels* Why don't you want your government to decide who shall be allowed to come and live here?

The US trades with Europe. Does the ECJ hold any writ in the US? Does the EU have any say in who should emigrate to the US?

The answer is "no" in both cases so why should it be "Yes" for the UK?

Is the US restricted by the EU as to with which country it shall have trade relations. The answer is "No" there too. The answers to those questions are also the same for a tiny country like Singapore where per capita GDP is over twice as high as it it here.

These are reasons why Brexit is an issue here and the genie is not likely to disappear back into the bottle. He's out and he's staying out!

The UK's finest hours were when it had independent government not as a province in some Teutonic Europe. Why oh why do you wish to live under the German jackboot? Do think they will offer more for less?
abelard
2017-12-03 10:20:58 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
3) Regain her position as PM, with authority and respect. She'd have respect from her party and respect from the people.
For too long she's been trying to appease her own party. Yeah this might all lead to major Tory party splits.....but the Tory party almost needs that. May might, at least, now save the UK from Brexit and gain respect as the PM that saved the UK from the massive mistake her predecessor got us into.
The ECJ will never again hold writ in this country no matter what the Telegraph or anyone else says. That would be a total negation of anyone's independence. Hope fully the ECJ and the Irish matter will finally lead to the breakdown of the talks and pave the way towards independence and trade with Europe on WTO terms.
That would be the best settlement for the UK at this juncture.
I cannot understand for the life of me as to why you people want to remain shackled to the EU and trade on such disadvantageous terms? Why do you want to pay for the privilege of a trading deficit?
Why do you want *your* laws to be decided in "Brussels* Why don't you want your government to decide who shall be allowed to come and live here?
The US trades with Europe. Does the ECJ hold any writ in the US? Does the EU have any say in who should emigrate to the US?
The answer is "no" in both cases so why should it be "Yes" for the UK?
Is the US restricted by the EU as to with which country it shall have trade relations. The answer is "No" there too. The answers to those questions are also the same for a tiny country like Singapore where per capita GDP is over twice as high as it it here.
all of which questions would receive the reverse answer were you
a satellite of the socialist soviet union

one half of the cult want a world government or empire...

the other half does not...

this is how the shia and the sunni get under way

or the catholic and the prod

socialism is a religion, a faith...not a matter of reason

religions always generate their theologians and their factions
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
These are reasons why Brexit is an issue here and the genie is not likely to disappear back into the bottle. He's out and he's staying out!
The UK's finest hours were when it had independent government not as a province in some Teutonic Europe. Why oh why do you wish to live under the German jackboot? Do think they will offer more for less?
religious minded persons crave certainties...rules they can
rely upon...
they like dictators...thinking is very hard work..and most
people respond to thinking as 'oppression...

people like the armchair general spend their live looking
for someone to follow...it is their form of security
--
www.abelard.org
finally ditched mimo
2017-12-03 10:37:17 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of
which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and
stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge
but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on
the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
3) Regain her position as PM, with authority and respect. She'd have
respect from her party and respect from the people.
For too long she's been trying to appease her own party. Yeah this might
all lead to major Tory party splits.....but the Tory party almost needs
that. May might, at least, now save the UK from Brexit and gain respect as
the PM that saved the UK from the massive mistake her predecessor got us
into.
The ECJ will never again hold writ in this country no matter what the
Telegraph or anyone else says. That would be a total negation of anyone's
independence. Hope fully the ECJ and the Irish matter will finally lead to
the breakdown of the talks and pave the way towards independence and trade
with Europe on WTO terms.
That would be the best settlement for the UK at this juncture.
I cannot understand for the life of me as to why you people want to remain
shackled to the EU and trade on such disadvantageous terms? Why do you want
to pay for the privilege of a trading deficit?
Why do you want *your* laws to be decided in "Brussels* Why don't you want
your government to decide who shall be allowed to come and live here?
The US trades with Europe. Does the ECJ hold any writ in the US? Does the EU
have any say in who should emigrate to the US?
The answer is "no" in both cases so why should it be "Yes" for the UK?
Is the US restricted by the EU as to with which country it shall have trade
relations. The answer is "No" there too. The answers to those questions are
also the same for a tiny country like Singapore where per capita GDP is over
twice as high as it it here.
These are reasons why Brexit is an issue here and the genie is not likely to
disappear back into the bottle. He's out and he's staying out!
The UK's finest hours were when it had independent government not as a
province in some Teutonic Europe. Why oh why do you wish to live under the
German jackboot? Do think they will offer more for less?
+1
MM
2017-12-03 16:25:51 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Mark, Devon
May now needs to face up to reality. She needs to do three things, all of which need courage:-
1) Face up to Boris and Give...tell 'em we're going to accept the ECJ, and stay in the single market. Yeah this might lead to a leadership challenge but, she'd beat those two idiots.
2) Recognise that the people would understand. There WOULD NOT be riots on the streets. She did her best, but Brexit was an impossibly stupid idea.
3) Regain her position as PM, with authority and respect. She'd have respect from her party and respect from the people.
For too long she's been trying to appease her own party. Yeah this might all lead to major Tory party splits.....but the Tory party almost needs that. May might, at least, now save the UK from Brexit and gain respect as the PM that saved the UK from the massive mistake her predecessor got us into.
The ECJ will never again hold writ in this country no matter what the Telegraph or anyone else says. That would be a total negation of anyone's independence. Hope fully the ECJ and the Irish matter will finally lead to the breakdown of the talks and pave the way towards independence and trade with Europe on WTO terms.
That would be the best settlement for the UK at this juncture.
I cannot understand for the life of me as to why you people want to remain shackled to the EU and trade on such disadvantageous terms? Why do you want to pay for the privilege of a trading deficit?
Why do you want *your* laws to be decided in "Brussels* Why don't you want your government to decide who shall be allowed to come and live here?
The US trades with Europe. Does the ECJ hold any writ in the US? Does the EU have any say in who should emigrate to the US?
The answer is "no" in both cases so why should it be "Yes" for the UK?
Is the US restricted by the EU as to with which country it shall have trade relations. The answer is "No" there too. The answers to those questions are also the same for a tiny country like Singapore where per capita GDP is over twice as high as it it here.
These are reasons why Brexit is an issue here and the genie is not likely to disappear back into the bottle. He's out and he's staying out!
The UK's finest hours were when it had independent government not as a province in some Teutonic Europe. Why oh why do you wish to live under the German jackboot? Do think they will offer more for less?
Okay, so you don't understand the huge benefit of the EU and being a
member of it.

However, many more people than the 17 million who voted to leave DO
understand and will expect the government to obtain a compromise or
even an outright revocation of Brexit.

What the government needs to do (they actually have already, behind
the scenes) is work out how damaging to their future election success
such an outcome will be. Obviously, a few months ago it would have
been extremely damaging, but not any more. Hardcore Brexiters like
Iain Duncan Smith are falling over themselves to agree to paying up to
£50bn to leave, whereas a few weeks ago they'd have been spitting
blood. Remember when Boris said the EU could go whistle?

I believe that the government detects a changing mood in the country
away from Brexit, and what it must do is manage the general public's
expectations more precisely so as to steer that mood totally away from
Brexit. I believe, too, that this is what's been happening these past
18 months since the referendum. The government might have hoped that
"Project Fear" would come true sooner, but Osborne and Carney
overegged that particular pudding, making it appear too rich for
serious consumption. But as time passes we're all beginning to realise
the humongous problems that now beset the Brexit decision. Whether
it's the divorce settlement, transition period, ECJ, Ireland, or the
economy, nothing is good news. There is NO good news. And because of
Brexit the PM loses another significant team which resigned yesterday.

Meanwhile, the EU *still* holds firmly on to the cards it has held
from the outset. We have none. All we have is a reluctance to
compromise. But we will, possibly to the point of surrendering the
referendum result for the greater good of the country as a whole.

MM
Joe
2017-12-03 17:45:16 UTC
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On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:25:51 +0000
Post by MM
Okay, so you don't understand the huge benefit of the EU and being a
member of it.
No, because despite numerous requests to explain this huge benefit,
you've been remarkably reticent on the subject. Are you ready to tell
us yet?
--
Joe
Mike Crowers
2017-12-04 06:13:35 UTC
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Post by Joe
On Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:25:51 +0000
Post by MM
Okay, so you don't understand the huge benefit of the EU and being a
member of it.
No, because despite numerous requests to explain this huge benefit,
you've been remarkably reticent on the subject. Are you ready to tell
us yet?
--
Joe
The remoaning side couldn't explain any benefits from the EU farce prior to Brexit Joe and is is blatantly obvious they cannot now...
m***@btopenworld.com
2017-12-03 22:01:00 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by MM
Okay, so you don't understand the huge benefit of the EU and being a
member of it.
I stand open to presuasion but not much has come my way yet.
Post by MM
However, many more people than the 17 million who voted to leave DO
understand and will expect the government to obtain a compromise or
even an outright revocation of Brexit.
Then why did they not vote accordingly?

In fact, there was a greater turn out than in any other democratic exercise in recent years.
Post by MM
What the government needs to do (they actually have already, behind
the scenes) is work out how damaging to their future election success
such an outcome will be. Obviously, a few months ago it would have
been extremely damaging, but not any more. Hardcore Brexiters like
Iain Duncan Smith are falling over themselves to agree to paying up to
£50bn to leave, whereas a few weeks ago they'd have been spitting
blood. Remember when Boris said the EU could go whistle?
Really?

Then just look what he said about it just this morning:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/03/ids-european-court-justices-authority-must-end-take-back-control/

"In any case these overall figures comprise two elements – the money we would pay as a result of existing legal obligations, and the additional contribution that the UK would make during any implementation period of an arrangement on free trade.

But the payment of the second element must be contingent on two things. First, a deal that includes reciprocal free trade without tariffs or non-tariff barriers between the UK and the EU and leaves the UK free to implement global trade deals.

Second, and perhaps most important of all, it must be contingent on an end to the authority of the Court of Justice of the European Union, commonly known as the European Court of Justice (ECJ).

Most people who take an interest in the EU recognise that the single most important definition of taking back control is the moment we leave the authority of the ECJ."
Post by MM
I believe that the government detects a changing mood in the country
away from Brexit, and what it must do is manage the general public's
expectations more precisely so as to steer that mood totally away from
Brexit. I believe, too, that this is what's been happening these past
18 months since the referendum. The government might have hoped that
"Project Fear" would come true sooner, but Osborne and Carney
overegged that particular pudding, making it appear too rich for
serious consumption. But as time passes we're all beginning to realise
the humongous problems that now beset the Brexit decision. Whether
it's the divorce settlement, transition period, ECJ, Ireland, or the
economy, nothing is good news. There is NO good news. And because of
Brexit the PM loses another significant team which resigned yesterday.
There's plenty of good news. Since the Brexit vote, the economy has hardly looked back despite all the prophesies of doom, the sky has not fallen in.

The best news of all is that deal or no deal, we leave the EU as per the Treaty of Lisbon on the 29th of March 2019 and nothing can stop that event.
Post by MM
Meanwhile, the EU *still* holds firmly on to the cards it has held
from the outset. We have none. All we have is a reluctance to
compromise. But we will, possibly to the point of surrendering the
referendum result for the greater good of the country as a whole.
What cards? Greece? Spain? Italy? Portugal? Cyprus? 20%-30% unemployment? higher among young people. The slowest growth rate of all the earths economic blocs?
MM
2017-12-10 22:39:24 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
There's plenty of good news. Since the Brexit vote, the economy has hardly looked back despite all the prophesies of doom, the sky has not fallen in.
"The UK economy slipped to the bottom of the league of G7 leading
economies in June but has since overtaken Japan after registering 0.4
per cent growth for the latest quarter.

"That leaves the UK trailing Germany, France, Italy, the US and
Canada. On the eve of the Brexit vote the UK economy was expanding
faster than all of those nations."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-uk-economy-g7-bottom-mark-carney-bank-of-england-a8058036.html

"Car production fell by 5% in August 2017."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/4569118/uk-car-factories-hit-the-brakes-as-new-car-demand-plummets-again-and-car-makers-blame-slow-brexit-deal/

Grimsby seafood producers are so worried about tariffs that they want
Free Port status.

We will have to pay around £39bn to the EU.

We'll have to retain full alignment as a backstop if the talks fail.

There is no good news about Brexit.

MM
James Harris
2017-12-10 22:52:30 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by MM
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
There's plenty of good news. Since the Brexit vote, the economy has hardly looked back despite all the prophesies of doom, the sky has not fallen in.
"The UK economy slipped to the bottom of the league of G7 leading
economies in June but has since overtaken Japan after registering 0.4
per cent growth for the latest quarter.
Good of you to point out we've "overtaken" Japan.
Post by MM
"That leaves the UK trailing Germany, France, Italy, the US and
Canada. On the eve of the Brexit vote the UK economy was expanding
faster than all of those nations."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-latest-news-uk-economy-g7-bottom-mark-carney-bank-of-england-a8058036.html
"Car production fell by 5% in August 2017."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/4569118/uk-car-factories-hit-the-brakes-as-new-car-demand-plummets-again-and-car-makers-blame-slow-brexit-deal/
Grimsby seafood producers are so worried about tariffs that they want
Free Port status.
We will have to pay around £39bn to the EU.
We would have had to pay that whether we stayed or left. Were you aware
of that?
Post by MM
We'll have to retain full alignment as a backstop if the talks fail.
In certain areas - but that is still a concern.
Post by MM
There is no good news about Brexit.
Oh, yes there is. ;)
http://pensites.com/politics/article-1155/Brexit-news#bottom
--
James Harris
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