The EU seeks 'punishment' powers during transition

[Ophelia]

'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and impose
trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period. Under the
proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers — without the
oversight of European courts — to punish Britain unilaterally if it breached
the terms of the transition. The prime minister has also been warned by
Brussels that she must make a legal commitment to prevent a hard border in
Northern Ireland within weeks or the EU will “stall” Brexit trade and
transition talks. Both issues are expected to be discussed by ministers
today when the cabinet’s Brexit sub-committee meets to try to reach
agreement on the next stage of negotiations.' - The Times



--
http//www.helpforheroes.org.uk

[Lancer]

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition.

You think the UK should have their cake and eat it?

I hope when she makes trade deals with other countries and they breach
the terms there will be a clause that will allow Britain to punish them.

[Ophelia]

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition.

You think the UK should have their cake and eat it?

I hope when she makes trade deals with other countries and they breach
the terms there will be a clause that will allow Britain to punish them.

==

Please note that when countries leave our union, we do all we can to help
them, not punish them!

[Lancer]

Post by Lancer

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition.

You think the UK should have their cake and eat it?
I hope when she makes trade deals with other countries and they breach
the terms there will be a clause that will allow Britain to punish them.
==
Please note that when countries leave our union, we do all we can to help
them, not punish them!

Even if they renege on agreements they've signed? Oh what a naive world
you live in.

[Roger Hayter]

Post by Lancer

Post by Lancer

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition.

You think the UK should have their cake and eat it?
I hope when she makes trade deals with other countries and they breach
the terms there will be a clause that will allow Britain to punish them.
==
Please note that when countries leave our union, we do all we can to help
them, not punish them!

Even if they renege on agreements they've signed? Oh what a naive world
you live in.

The treatment of Zimbabwe after independence is a case in point. I
make not claim as to whether sanctions were justified or not, but they
were certainly effective.

[Basil Jet]

Post by Lancer

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition.

You think the UK should have their cake and eat it?
I hope when she makes trade deals with other countries and they breach
the terms there will be a clause that will allow Britain to punish them.

If the EU breaks its side of the deal, will we be able to punish them?

[Lancer]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Lancer

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition.

You think the UK should have their cake and eat it?
I hope when she makes trade deals with other countries and they breach
the terms there will be a clause that will allow Britain to punish them.

If the EU breaks its side of the deal, will we be able to punish them?

If May has the balls to stand up to them and put a similar clause in our
side of the agreement.

[tim...]

Post by Lancer

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition.

You think the UK should have their cake and eat it?

No

but there's a common law principle that if you accuse someone of breaking a
rule you have to prove it to a disinterested adjudicator before applying
punishments

Post by Lancer
I hope when she makes trade deals with other countries and they breach the
terms there will be a clause that will allow Britain to punish them.

but there's a process for that which is overseen by a higher party (the
WTO).

tim

[Lancer]

Post by tim...

Post by Lancer

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition.

You think the UK should have their cake and eat it?

No
but there's a common law principle that if you accuse someone of
breaking a rule you have to prove it to a disinterested adjudicator
before applying punishments

The EU are saying it could take too long to take Britain to the European
court to settle a dispute. May and her ilk need to make sure there is
some sort of arbitrating before signing.

Post by tim...

Post by Lancer
I hope when she makes trade deals with other countries and they breach
the terms there will be a clause that will allow Britain to punish them.

but there's a process for that which is overseen by a higher party (the
WTO).

When Trump slapped tariffs on goods from other countries did he consult
the WTO?

I didn't mean WTO rules anyway, but trade agreements she is seeking.

[tim...]

Post by Lancer

Post by tim...

Post by Lancer

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition.

You think the UK should have their cake and eat it?

No
but there's a common law principle that if you accuse someone of
breaking a rule you have to prove it to a disinterested adjudicator
before applying punishments

The EU are saying it could take too long to take Britain to the European
court to settle a dispute. May and her ilk need to make sure there is some
sort of arbitrating before signing.

Post by tim...

Post by Lancer
I hope when she makes trade deals with other countries and they breach
the terms there will be a clause that will allow Britain to punish them.

but there's a process for that which is overseen by a higher party (the
WTO).

When Trump slapped tariffs on goods from other countries did he consult
the WTO?

no, but the other countries do have the right to complain to the WTO to have
them taken off again

Post by Lancer
I didn't mean WTO rules anyway, but trade agreements she is seeking.

Trade agreement are registered with the WTO

I assume (perhaps wrongly) they they are still the arbiter if one country
claims that other county isn't complying as agreed

tim

[m***@gmail.com]

What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball is in your court. It's up to Brexiters to make Brexit a success, not us Remainers. It's up to Brexiters to deliver on the £350m extra per week for the NHS, lower inflation than was the case before the referendum, lower unemployment than we have now, lower prices than we have now, new trade deals that exceed any losses that the UK incurs upon leaving, the UK being better positioned to influence world events, and a whole host of other Brexit promises.

People have been promised a whole lot of stunning improvements that will happen from Brexit day 1, so Brexiters, deliver it all and stop making excuses.

[m***@btopenworld.com]

On Thursday, February 8, 2018 at 9:45:48 PM UTC, ***@gmail.com wrote:

It's up to Brexiters to make Brexit a success, not us Remainers. It's up to Brexiters to deliver on the £350m extra per week for the NHS, lower inflation than was the case before the referendum, lower unemployment than we have now ...

Don't be daft! unemployment can's be much lower than we have now! Anyway, you'd run a mile from the offer of a job!

[Andy Walker]

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border. Absolutely nothing. If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

Likewise with the Gibraltar border.

Post by m***@gmail.com
It's up to Brexiters to make Brexit a success, not
us Remainers. It's up to Brexiters to deliver on the £350m extra per
week for the NHS, lower inflation than was the case before the
referendum, lower unemployment than we have now, lower prices than we
have now, new trade deals that exceed any losses that the UK incurs
upon leaving, the UK being better positioned to influence world
events, and a whole host of other Brexit promises.

Bearing in mind that the Remain position, as set out in the
Government pamphlet, was for dire consequences the day after the
referendum, then ISTM that any intermediate result between the
version of "Project Fear" espoused by Remainers and the vision of
sunny uplands espoused by Brexiteers should be thought of as a
typical British compromise.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <p5k710$8ff$***@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Walker <***@cuboid.co.uk>
writes

Post by Andy Walker

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border. Absolutely nothing. If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

Knowing the past history of Ireland, what do you think would be the
result of almost ANY sort of new physical border restrictions being put
in place?

Post by Andy Walker
Likewise with the Gibraltar border.

Even after we joined the Customs Union, the Spanish were not above
playing sillybuggers at the border crossing.

Post by Andy Walker

Post by m***@gmail.com
It's up to Brexiters to make Brexit a success, not
us Remainers. It's up to Brexiters to deliver on the £350m extra per
week for the NHS, lower inflation than was the case before the
referendum, lower unemployment than we have now, lower prices than we
have now, new trade deals that exceed any losses that the UK incurs
upon leaving, the UK being better positioned to influence world
events, and a whole host of other Brexit promises.

Bearing in mind that the Remain position, as set out in the
Government pamphlet, was for dire consequences the day after the
referendum, then ISTM that any intermediate result between the
version of "Project Fear" espoused by Remainers and the vision of
sunny uplands espoused by Brexiteers should be thought of as a
typical British compromise.

The only insoluble problem is the Irish border. Everything else IS - and
it's simply a question of how large the small fortune that it's going to
cost us will end up being. [Clue: Much more than £40bn.]

[MM]

Post by Andy Walker

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border. Absolutely nothing. If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?

MM

[Ian Jackson]

Post by MM

Post by Andy Walker

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border. Absolutely nothing. If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?
MM

I'm sure that most Brexiteers DO care about it - but when pressed for a
definitive solution about the border problem, the best you'll get out of
them is something like "Oh I'm sure we'll be able to sort something
out". So far, there's little sign of anything happening.

[James Hammerton]

Post by MM

Post by Andy Walker

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border. Absolutely nothing. If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?

That doesn't follow. ISTM Mr Walker's point is that the erection of
border controls along the NI/RoI border by the EU is the EU's
responsibility in this scenario. If erecting such controls would violate
the GFA then that would be down to the EU's decisions, not the UK's.

Regards,

James

[Ian Jackson]

Post by James Hammerton

Post by MM

Post by Andy Walker

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border. Absolutely nothing. If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?

That doesn't follow. ISTM Mr Walker's point is that the erection of
border controls along the NI/RoI border by the EU is the EU's
responsibility in this scenario. If erecting such controls would
violate the GFA then that would be down to the EU's decisions, not the
UK's.

Yes, if there are any border restrictions it will all be the fault of
the EU in general, and the RoI in particular. It won't be anything to do
with the UK. Why shouldn't we expect the 'other side' to allow free
entry of people and custom-free entry of goods into the EU? After all,
it's not as though 17 million UK citizens had voted for the UK to leave
the EU (is it?).

[James Hammerton]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Hammerton

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

    I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border.  Absolutely nothing.  If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

 So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?

That doesn't follow. ISTM Mr Walker's point is that the erection of
border controls along the NI/RoI border by the EU is the EU's
responsibility in this scenario. If erecting such controls would
violate the GFA then that would be down to the EU's decisions, not the
UK's.

Yes, if there are any border restrictions it will all be the fault of
the EU in general, and the RoI in particular. It won't be anything to do
with the UK.

In the scenario described, why blame the UK for the EU's decisions? The
UK would be taking seriously the idea of not imposing border controls
(which both sides claim to want) by simply not imposing border controls,
it would be the EU (and Ireland either agreeing or not having clout to
force the issue) deciding to impose border controls on their side of the
border, ergo it's their responsibility.

Post by Ian Jackson
Why shouldn't we expect the 'other side' to allow free
entry of people and custom-free entry of goods into the EU?

It's not a case of "expecting" this, it's a case of both sides saying
they don't want a "hard border" and then one side saying "ok then, we
won't impose one", and seeing whether the other side follows suit.

Regards,

James

[Ian Jackson]

Post by James Hammerton

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Hammerton

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

    I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border.  Absolutely nothing.  If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

 So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?

That doesn't follow. ISTM Mr Walker's point is that the erection of
border controls along the NI/RoI border by the EU is the EU's
responsibility in this scenario. If erecting such controls would
violate the GFA then that would be down to the EU's decisions, not the UK's.

Yes, if there are any border restrictions it will all be the fault of
the EU in general, and the RoI in particular. It won't be anything to
with the UK.

In the scenario described, why blame the UK for the EU's decisions? The
UK would be taking seriously the idea of not imposing border controls
(which both sides claim to want) by simply not imposing border
controls, it would be the EU (and Ireland either agreeing or not having
clout to force the issue) deciding to impose border controls on their
side of the border, ergo it's their responsibility.

Because The Will Of The UK People has overridden The Will Of The
Northern Irish People (of whom 56% voted to stay in the EU), the UK is
putting both the RoI and NI in a very difficult position.

As the RoI is IN the EU, they will have no choice but to carry out their
responsibilities and apply whatever border controls the EU decides that
EU members have to apply. I have no doubt at all that the RoI doesn't
want to change the status quo, but that's the way it is. Unless the EU
come to some (presently nebulous) special agreement with the UK, the RoI
will either have to behave just like any of the other 26 remaining EU
members, or leave the EU - and that really WOULD down with RoI citizens
who, I believe, are around 90% in favour of EU membership.

Post by James Hammerton

Post by Ian Jackson
Why shouldn't we expect the 'other side' to allow free entry of
people and custom-free entry of goods into the EU?

It's not a case of "expecting" this, it's a case of both sides saying
they don't want a "hard border" and then one side saying "ok then, we
won't impose one", and seeing whether the other side follows suit.

The UK can do what the hell it likes regarding UK border controls - but
as I said, the RoI will have to behave like any other EU member, and
apply whatever EU border controls the EU agrees regarding entry from the
UK. Without any special agreement once we've left the EU, as far as the
EU is concerned the UK will simply be part of the Rest Of The World.

[abelard]

On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 20:42:01 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Hammerton

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Hammerton

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

    I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border.  Absolutely nothing.  If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

 So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?

That doesn't follow. ISTM Mr Walker's point is that the erection of
border controls along the NI/RoI border by the EU is the EU's
responsibility in this scenario. If erecting such controls would
violate the GFA then that would be down to the EU's decisions, not the UK's.

Yes, if there are any border restrictions it will all be the fault of
the EU in general, and the RoI in particular. It won't be anything to
with the UK.

In the scenario described, why blame the UK for the EU's decisions? The
UK would be taking seriously the idea of not imposing border controls
(which both sides claim to want) by simply not imposing border
controls, it would be the EU (and Ireland either agreeing or not having
clout to force the issue) deciding to impose border controls on their
side of the border, ergo it's their responsibility.

Because The Will Of The UK People has overridden The Will Of The
Northern Irish People (of whom 56% voted to stay in the EU), the UK is
putting both the RoI and NI in a very difficult position.

what nonsense...you could a well argue that for esher or oxford...

either you live in a political uk...or you do not

Post by Ian Jackson
As the RoI is IN the EU, they will have no choice but to carry out their
responsibilities and apply whatever border controls the EU decides that
EU members have to apply.

what nonsense...they can hold a referendum to leave(or otherwise)
the eussr

Post by Ian Jackson
I have no doubt at all that the RoI doesn't
want to change the status quo, but that's the way it is. Unless the EU
come to some (presently nebulous) special agreement with the UK, the RoI
will either have to behave just like any of the other 26 remaining EU
members, or leave the EU - and that really WOULD down with RoI citizens
who, I believe, are around 90% in favour of EU membership.

Post by James Hammerton

Post by Ian Jackson
Why shouldn't we expect the 'other side' to allow free entry of
people and custom-free entry of goods into the EU?

It's not a case of "expecting" this, it's a case of both sides saying
they don't want a "hard border" and then one side saying "ok then, we
won't impose one", and seeing whether the other side follows suit.

The UK can do what the hell it likes regarding UK border controls - but
as I said, the RoI will have to behave like any other EU member, and
apply whatever EU border controls the EU agrees regarding entry from the
UK. Without any special agreement once we've left the EU, as far as the
EU is concerned the UK will simply be part of the Rest Of The World.

it will 'have to' do no such thing

[MM]

On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 18:06:18 +0000, James Hammerton

Post by James Hammerton

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Hammerton

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

    I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border.  Absolutely nothing.  If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

 So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?

That doesn't follow. ISTM Mr Walker's point is that the erection of
border controls along the NI/RoI border by the EU is the EU's
responsibility in this scenario. If erecting such controls would
violate the GFA then that would be down to the EU's decisions, not the
UK's.

Yes, if there are any border restrictions it will all be the fault of
the EU in general, and the RoI in particular. It won't be anything to do
with the UK.

In the scenario described, why blame the UK for the EU's decisions?

Because the UK kicked off the whole thing by inviting the electorate
here to vote in a referendum! That was *our* decision to leave, NOT
the EU's.

Post by James Hammerton
The
UK would be taking seriously the idea of not imposing border controls
(which both sides claim to want) by simply not imposing border controls,

It cannot NOT impose them if we're out of the customs union. If we
leave the customs union, that is solely the UK's decision and it must
take the consequences.

Post by James Hammerton
it would be the EU (and Ireland either agreeing or not having clout to
force the issue) deciding to impose border controls on their side of the
border, ergo it's their responsibility.

Neither the EU, nor the Republic of Ireland, nor the UK would have any
choice OTHER than to impose border controls. Heck, the UK government
has already intimated this by suggesting various vague electronic
means of providing customs controls. But customs controls of one form
or another will be inevitable if we leave the customs union.

Post by James Hammerton

Post by Ian Jackson
Why shouldn't we expect the 'other side' to allow free
entry of people and custom-free entry of goods into the EU?

It's not a case of "expecting" this, it's a case of both sides saying
they don't want a "hard border" and then one side saying "ok then, we
won't impose one", and seeing whether the other side follows suit.

Neither side can say this if we come out of the customs union. In
fact, if we, Britain, decided to impose NO controls at the border at
all, it would not be long before the Republic would close the border.
And then you'll hear the cacophony of screaming in Moscow, let alone
Brussels. Oh, and we would be responsible for breaking the Good Friday
Agreement.

MM

[MM]

On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:27:33 +0000, James Hammerton

Post by James Hammerton

Post by MM

Post by Andy Walker

Post by m***@gmail.com
What do you, and other Brexieters, propose re. the Irish border
issue? Realistic, practical, meaningful solutions please....the ball
is in your court.

I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border. Absolutely nothing. If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?

That doesn't follow.

Of course it follows! If we're NOT in the customs union and the
Republic of Ireland is, how could there NOT be a border between the
two parts of Ireland? Or don't you understand what the words "customs
union" mean?

Post by James Hammerton
ISTM Mr Walker's point is that the erection of
border controls along the NI/RoI border by the EU is the EU's
responsibility in this scenario. If erecting such controls would violate
the GFA then that would be down to the EU's decisions, not the UK's.

Of course it is down to the UK's decision! If we decide to leave the
customs union, we are leaving the EU no choice but to erect customs
controls. And we will have to erect them as well.

Never forget that it is *the UK* that is wholly responsible for this
total shambles.

MM

[Andy Walker]

Post by MM
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 17:27:33 +0000, James Hammerton

[I wrote:]

Post by MM

Post by James Hammerton

Post by MM

Post by Andy Walker
I'm not Ophelia, nor am I a Brexiteer [tho' I think I could
play one on the Net], but I know what I would do about the Irish
border. Absolutely nothing. If the rEU want to erect barbed-wire
fences, border posts, whatever -- that's their decision, not ours,
and it wouldn't go down well with Ireland.

So you don't care about maintaining the Good Friday Agreement, then?

As James says, non sequitur. The GFA has two parts, one an
internal matter for NI, the other an inter-governmental agreement
between the UK and the RoI. The EU is not involved, except in very
marginal ways, despite the efforts of Ms Miller.

Post by MM

Post by James Hammerton
That doesn't follow.

Of course it follows! If we're NOT in the customs union and the
Republic of Ireland is, how could there NOT be a border between the
two parts of Ireland? Or don't you understand what the words "customs
union" mean?

There already is a border. ATM both sides choose not to
enforce it by means of barbed wire, armed guards, and the like. I
see no reason why either the UK or the RoI should waste money by
changing that. If the EU decides otherwise, it's their problem.

Collecting customs dues is a quite other matter. But not
directly to do with the border. All the important things likely to
attract tariffs are already or easily can be tracked in other ways.
Small-scale smuggling in private cars is unpreventable with or
without a customs union -- witness the cigarettes and booze brought
in through Dover.

Post by MM

Post by James Hammerton
ISTM Mr Walker's point is that the erection of
border controls along the NI/RoI border by the EU is the EU's
responsibility in this scenario. If erecting such controls would violate
the GFA then that would be down to the EU's decisions, not the UK's.

Exactly so. Esp as the RoI has indicated that they don't
want a "hard" border.

Post by MM
Of course it is down to the UK's decision! If we decide to leave the
customs union, we are leaving the EU no choice but to erect customs
controls. And we will have to erect them as well.

There's no compulsion about it. There's not even any point
except for goods being imported through a tariff wall. The sensible
thing is to have no tariffs on things that are easily smuggled, and
impose them -- if you want to -- on things like cars and livestock
that either have to be registered or are already tracked. Whether
either the UK or the EU will be sensible is another matter.

Post by MM
Never forget that it is *the UK* that is wholly responsible for this
total shambles.

What nonsense! *If* there is to be a shambles, it will come
about through [failure of] negotiation. As a relatively neutral
observer, ISTM [based on what we have seen so far] that would, if it
happens, be largely the result of the EU's intransigence.

[Ian Jackson]

In message <p65f1o$t1q$***@gioia.aioe.org>, Andy Walker <***@cuboid.co.uk>
writes

Post by Andy Walker
*If* there is to be a shambles, it will come
about through [failure of] negotiation.

This (failure of negotiation) is something that the political factions
in NI Ireland are particularly good at. Mind you, they're not much
better on this side of the Irish Sea.

[abelard]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 08:50:48 +0000, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson
writes

Post by Andy Walker
*If* there is to be a shambles, it will come
about through [failure of] negotiation.

This (failure of negotiation) is something that the political factions
in NI Ireland are particularly good at. Mind you, they're not much
better on this side of the Irish Sea.

are you trying to divert attention from the reasonable
comments of the previous poster?

[Lancer]

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition. The prime
minister has also been warned by Brussels that she must make a legal
commitment to prevent a hard border in Northern Ireland within weeks or
the EU will “stall” Brexit trade and transition talks. Both issues are
expected to be discussed by ministers today when the cabinet’s Brexit
sub-committee meets to try to reach agreement on the next stage of
negotiations.' - The Times

Seems they've removed that clause.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43062112

"A footnote published by the European Commission last week suggested
that the UK would lose access to elements of the European single market
if it broke EU rules during the transition period.

But officials have now promised new wording that makes reference to the
EU's standard infringement procedures."


Their negotiators *do* listen.

[tim...]

Post by Lancer

Post by Ophelia
'Brussels is demanding that Theresa May submit to powers allowing the
European Union to ground flights, suspend single market access and
impose trade tariffs on the UK during the Brexit transition period.
Under the proposals, the EU would have unprecedented legal powers —
without the oversight of European courts — to punish Britain
unilaterally if it breached the terms of the transition. The prime
minister has also been warned by Brussels that she must make a legal
commitment to prevent a hard border in Northern Ireland within weeks or
the EU will “stall” Brexit trade and transition talks. Both issues are
expected to be discussed by ministers today when the cabinet’s Brexit
sub-committee meets to try to reach agreement on the next stage of
negotiations.' - The Times

Seems they've removed that clause.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43062112
"A footnote published by the European Commission last week suggested that
the UK would lose access to elements of the European single market if it
broke EU rules during the transition period.
But officials have now promised new wording that makes reference to the
EU's standard infringement procedures."
Their negotiators *do* listen.

No they didn't.

It was several Heads of EU states who told Barnier he had acted above his
authority and that his plan would harm them (their countries) as much as it
might harm us, and they he HAD to backtrack on such nonsense.

tim