Discussion:
What legal right to Gibraltar do the British defend?
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MM
2017-07-12 14:20:29 UTC
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Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.

Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.

MM

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Jethro_uk
2017-07-12 14:19:45 UTC
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Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't that
an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it back.
MM
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Didn't Spain cede it in perpetuity in the treaty of Utrecht ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Utrecht
abelard
2017-07-12 14:41:53 UTC
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 14:19:45 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't that
an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it back.
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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Didn't Spain cede it in perpetuity in the treaty of Utrecht ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Utrecht
it is british...so is the isle of sheppey...
jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
2017-07-12 14:54:39 UTC
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 14:19:45 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't that
an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it back.
MM
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Didn't Spain cede it in perpetuity in the treaty of Utrecht ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Utrecht
Why are the Spanish being so hypocritical about Gibraltar when they
have the mirror image enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla on the African
mainland?
- -
"We CAN hide forever."
- Klaun Shittinb'ricks (1940 - ), acknowledging that he will
NEVER prove where he infests or give his real jew name

"Die Juden sind unser Unglück!"
- Heinrich von Treitschke (1834 - 1896)

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade
Unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Trade
Unionist. Then they came for the jews, and I did not speak out
because I did not give a shit. Then they came for me and there
wasn't a single commie bastard left to speak for me."
- Martin Niemöller (1892 - 1984)
Dan S. MacAbre
2017-07-12 14:44:27 UTC
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Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
MM
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Spain has similar bits of Morocco, I think. Can't remember the name(s)
today. They can't really complain :-)
JNugent
2017-07-12 14:58:13 UTC
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Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
What is now known as Spain was not always so.

The Kingdom of Castile acquired the rest of Spain by dynastic means and
via a war - the war of the Castilian Succession. The various Spanish
monarchies had also re-acquired large territories from the Moors - by
(re-)conquest.

ditionally, Spain, as you probably know, and as well as holding the
Canary Islands (which are clearly part of the African continental
system), also possesses several territories on the African mainland
(enclaves within Morocco).

Why is it acceptable for Spain to consist of and to hold conquered
possessions but not the UK?
Norman Wells
2017-07-12 15:05:56 UTC
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Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
So what?
Post by MM
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
No, we didn't have any laws about war in those days, and they're a bit
silly anyway. Who would enforce them, and how?

What we had was the very useful 1713 Treaty of Utrecht which ended the
War of the Spanish Succession and ceded Gibraltar to the British in
perpetuity. That's the applicable law.

It's the perfidious Spanish who have repeatedly sought to undermine that
Treaty by repeatedly attacking Gibraltar in three successive wars and
besieging it from time to time. We've fought them off every time, and
of course feel little inclination to give in to such distasteful bullying.

They have no right to it. They're not getting it.

Boo hoo! Too bad.
James Harris
2017-07-13 09:51:46 UTC
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Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
So what?
Post by MM
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
No, we didn't have any laws about war in those days, and they're a bit
silly anyway. Who would enforce them, and how?
What we had was the very useful 1713 Treaty of Utrecht which ended the
War of the Spanish Succession and ceded Gibraltar to the British in
perpetuity. That's the applicable law.
It's the perfidious Spanish who have repeatedly sought to undermine that
Treaty by repeatedly attacking Gibraltar in three successive wars and
besieging it from time to time. We've fought them off every time, and
of course feel little inclination to give in to such distasteful bullying.
They have no right to it. They're not getting it.
Boo hoo! Too bad.
And, in fairness, the British government's original reason for keeping
Gibraltar (and Spain's for keeping Ceuta) is not longer anything like as
relevant.

From Britain's point of view, if the _people_ of Gibraltar wanted to be
Spanish then it would be ceded. But they don't.
--
James Harris
Jethro_uk
2017-07-13 09:55:49 UTC
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Post by James Harris
From Britain's point of view, if the _people_ of Gibraltar wanted to be
Spanish then it would be ceded. But they don't.
British governments reactions to what people want is highly variable.
Just ask the (ex) inhabitants of Diego Garcia.
James Harris
2017-07-13 10:05:21 UTC
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Post by Jethro_uk
Post by James Harris
From Britain's point of view, if the _people_ of Gibraltar wanted to be
Spanish then it would be ceded. But they don't.
British governments reactions to what people want is highly variable.
Just ask the (ex) inhabitants of Diego Garcia.
Different circumstances. But I agree that DG should be returned to the
people who lived there and/or their children - with lots of humble pie.
--
James Harris
tim...
2017-07-13 10:39:00 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by Jethro_uk
Post by James Harris
From Britain's point of view, if the _people_ of Gibraltar wanted to be
Spanish then it would be ceded. But they don't.
British governments reactions to what people want is highly variable.
Just ask the (ex) inhabitants of Diego Garcia.
Different circumstances. But I agree that DG should be returned to the
people who lived there and/or their children - with lots of humble pie.
it's not in our gift anymore though

we are just the whipping boy for the US here

tim
Post by James Harris
--
James Harris
saracene
2017-07-13 10:10:20 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
So what?
Post by MM
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
No, we didn't have any laws about war in those days, and they're a bit
silly anyway. Who would enforce them, and how?
What we had was the very useful 1713 Treaty of Utrecht which ended the
War of the Spanish Succession and ceded Gibraltar to the British in
perpetuity. That's the applicable law.
It's the perfidious Spanish who have repeatedly sought to undermine that
Treaty by repeatedly attacking Gibraltar in three successive wars and
besieging it from time to time. We've fought them off every time, and
of course feel little inclination to give in to such distasteful bullying.
They have no right to it. They're not getting it.
Boo hoo! Too bad.
And, in fairness, the British government's original reason for keeping
Gibraltar (and Spain's for keeping Ceuta) is not longer anything like as
relevant.
From Britain's point of view, if the _people_ of Gibraltar wanted to be
Spanish then it would be ceded. But they don't.
--
To be fair these issues are rarerly straightforward. If the richest province within a nation wishes to secede becaust its inhabitnats feel they could propser best on their own, this is not generally condoned.The desire of the Sudedenland to leave Czechoslavakia and join Germany was widely disapproved. Today, who would favour a referendun in parts of Eastern Ukraine as to whether they should join russia?
James Harris
2017-07-13 10:14:47 UTC
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Post by saracene
Post by James Harris
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
So what?
Post by MM
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
No, we didn't have any laws about war in those days, and they're a bit
silly anyway. Who would enforce them, and how?
What we had was the very useful 1713 Treaty of Utrecht which ended the
War of the Spanish Succession and ceded Gibraltar to the British in
perpetuity. That's the applicable law.
It's the perfidious Spanish who have repeatedly sought to undermine that
Treaty by repeatedly attacking Gibraltar in three successive wars and
besieging it from time to time. We've fought them off every time, and
of course feel little inclination to give in to such distasteful bullying.
They have no right to it. They're not getting it.
Boo hoo! Too bad.
And, in fairness, the British government's original reason for keeping
Gibraltar (and Spain's for keeping Ceuta) is not longer anything like as
relevant.
From Britain's point of view, if the _people_ of Gibraltar wanted to be
Spanish then it would be ceded. But they don't.
--
To be fair these issues are rarerly straightforward. If the richest province within a nation wishes to secede becaust its inhabitnats feel they could propser best on their own, this is not generally condoned.The desire of the Sudedenland to leave Czechoslavakia and join Germany was widely disapproved. Today, who would favour a referendun in parts of Eastern Ukraine as to whether they should join russia?
Sure, but Britain has handed back or over to self determination many
territories it once took by force, and has defended the rights of the
Falkland Islanders to remain as they wish to be, despite the cost of
defending them.
--
James Harris
saracene
2017-07-13 10:24:42 UTC
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Post by James Harris
Post by saracene
Post by James Harris
Post by Norman Wells
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
So what?
Post by MM
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
No, we didn't have any laws about war in those days, and they're a bit
silly anyway. Who would enforce them, and how?
What we had was the very useful 1713 Treaty of Utrecht which ended the
War of the Spanish Succession and ceded Gibraltar to the British in
perpetuity. That's the applicable law.
It's the perfidious Spanish who have repeatedly sought to undermine that
Treaty by repeatedly attacking Gibraltar in three successive wars and
besieging it from time to time. We've fought them off every time, and
of course feel little inclination to give in to such distasteful bullying.
They have no right to it. They're not getting it.
Boo hoo! Too bad.
And, in fairness, the British government's original reason for keeping
Gibraltar (and Spain's for keeping Ceuta) is not longer anything like as
relevant.
From Britain's point of view, if the _people_ of Gibraltar wanted to be
Spanish then it would be ceded. But they don't.
--
To be fair these issues are rarerly straightforward. If the richest province within a nation wishes to secede becaust its inhabitnats feel they could propser best on their own, this is not generally condoned.The desire of the Sudedenland to leave Czechoslavakia and join Germany was widely disapproved. Today, who would favour a referendun in parts of Eastern Ukraine as to whether they should join russia?
Sure, but Britain has handed back or over to self determination many
territories it once took by force, and has defended the rights of the
Falkland Islanders to remain as they wish to be, despite the cost of
defending them.
I agree, but the Spanish argue differently.
saracene
2017-07-12 15:06:04 UTC
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Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong
I don't. I'm proud of our history.
Post by MM
then and is wrong today.
Tell me why.
MM
2017-07-13 09:21:45 UTC
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On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 08:06:04 -0700 (PDT), saracene
Post by saracene
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong
I don't. I'm proud of our history.
Post by MM
then and is wrong today.
Tell me why.
Duh! Tell you why the slave trade was wrong?

MM

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saracene
2017-07-13 09:25:44 UTC
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Post by MM
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 08:06:04 -0700 (PDT), saracene
Post by saracene
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong
I don't. I'm proud of our history.
Post by MM
then and is wrong today.
Tell me why.
Duh! Tell you why the slave trade was wrong?
Yes. Please articulate. Was it also wrong when the ancient Greeks and Romans engaged in it?
c***@googlemail.com
2017-07-13 19:25:57 UTC
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Post by MM
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 08:06:04 -0700 (PDT), saracene
Post by saracene
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong
I don't. I'm proud of our history.
Post by MM
then and is wrong today.
Tell me why.
Duh! Tell you why the slave trade was wrong?
MM
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He's the closest I think I'll ever get to actually talking to somebody from the 19th Century!!
c***@googlemail.com
2017-07-13 19:21:46 UTC
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Post by saracene
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong
I don't. I'm proud of our history.
Tell me why.
Because all human beings are born with the equal right to be free.
Basil Jet
2017-07-12 15:10:09 UTC
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Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
Spain will struggle to hold on to Catalonia, never mind trying to
conquer new foreigners to dominate.
Mike Swift
2017-07-12 15:36:51 UTC
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Spain will struggle to hold on to Catalonia, never mind trying to conquer
new foreigners to dominate.
And if the Spaniards and the EU start playing silly buggers over
Scottish independence there's always the Basque regions to keep them on
the straight and narrow.

Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
m***@btopenworld.com
2017-07-12 15:58:58 UTC
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Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
It's no good asking us!

Why don't you ask the Gibraltarians who incidentally have a higher per capita GDP either then the UK, Spain or indeed Germany.

I wonder what they would say?

You believe in self determination don't you? Then again, judging from your attitude towards Brexit clearly you don't!

You descry slavery particularly the slavery practised in the British Empire (but not apparently in the German slave camps)

Do you not consider forcing people to become part of another country against their wishes to be a form of slavery?

What if the Gibraltarians do not wish to live under Spanish rule? The most commonly spoken language in Gibraltar is, of course English and after 300+ years of British rule they are a very cosmopolitan lot originating from all over the old Empire.

When the British acquired Gib it was nothing more than a wilderness of scrub totally useless for agriculture, The only interest the British had in it was as a naval base in a very strategic position that controls entry into the Mediterranean Sea. For that reason it's probably better kept in safe hands.

In fact Gibraltar is self governing with its own elected Parliament responsible for all government other than foreign affairs and defence. Gibraltarians enjoy full British citizenship. It's a setup very similar to that which prevails in the Falklands.

You know what happens to foreign oountries that attempt to usurp the rights and privileges of British citizens don't you? Or do you look forward to British ordinance slamming into the oil refinery in Algeciras?
abelard
2017-07-12 18:15:33 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
It's no good asking us!
Why don't you ask the Gibraltarians who incidentally have a higher per capita GDP either then the UK, Spain or indeed Germany.
I wonder what they would say?
You believe in self determination don't you?
don't be daft...or course she doesn't!
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Then again, judging from your attitude towards Brexit clearly you don't!
You descry slavery particularly the slavery practised in the British Empire (but not apparently in the German slave camps)
Do you not consider forcing people to become part of another country against their wishes to be a form of slavery?
What if the Gibraltarians do not wish to live under Spanish rule? The most commonly spoken language in Gibraltar is, of course English and after 300+ years of British rule they are a very cosmopolitan lot originating from all over the old Empire.
When the British acquired Gib it was nothing more than a wilderness of scrub totally useless for agriculture, The only interest the British had in it was as a naval base in a very strategic position that controls entry into the Mediterranean Sea. For that reason it's probably better kept in safe hands.
In fact Gibraltar is self governing with its own elected Parliament responsible for all government other than foreign affairs and defence. Gibraltarians enjoy full British citizenship. It's a setup very similar to that which prevails in the Falklands.
You know what happens to foreign oountries that attempt to usurp the rights and privileges of British citizens don't you? Or do you look forward to British ordinance slamming into the oil refinery in Algeciras?
tim...
2017-07-12 23:05:09 UTC
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Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
it's how all land was acquired in the middle ages and early modern periods

it is no different to anywhere else that current countries formed before
1945 claim as their own

perhaps Poland should give Silesia [1] back to Germany and Western Ukraine
should be returned to Poland
instead, as just one example

tim

[1] Silesia was take from German as punishment for losing an illegal war
rather than because Poland won an illegal war, but the principle's much the
same
Byker
2017-07-12 23:33:51 UTC
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Post by tim...
perhaps Poland should give Silesia [1] back to Germany and Western Ukraine
should be returned to Poland
instead, as just one example
I wonder how the Russkies would feel about Germany demanding Königsberg
(Kaliningrad) back?

In the mid-19th century, Russia took advantage of Chinese weakness to
acquire numerous territories, of which probably the most important was
territory then known as Outer Manchuria but now constituting in many ways
the core of the current Russian Far East. I wonder if China someday will
make a grab for what was previously theirs:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict

http://hir.harvard.edu/will-china-colonize-and-incorporate-siberia/

https://www.wilsoncenter.org/sites/default/files/No3_ChineseMigtoRussia.pdf

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2016/04/12/why-chinas-latest-power-play-may-roil-russia/

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2015/06/21/world-view-russia-makes-a-controversial-deal-to-lease-siberia-land-to-china/
Oleg Smirnov
2017-07-13 00:22:15 UTC
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"tim..." wrote in message
Post by tim...
perhaps Poland should give Silesia [1] back to Germany
and Western Ukraine should be returned to Poland
instead, as just one example
I wonder how the Russkies would feel about Germany
demanding Königsberg (Kaliningrad) back?
It would be fair to return North America to the indigenous Americans and
resettle the invaders back to Europe (and the people of African origin back
to Africa etc).

The process of restoration of justice might be started from Hawaii.

Hawaii is under illegal US occupation for about a century, - in the 1890s
there was an anti-constitutional 'regime change' implemented by the American
agents and backed by the US army, after which Hawaii was illegally annexed.
jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
2017-07-13 13:14:28 UTC
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Post by Oleg Smirnov
"tim..." wrote in message
Post by tim...
perhaps Poland should give Silesia [1] back to Germany
and Western Ukraine should be returned to Poland
instead, as just one example
I wonder how the Russkies would feel about Germany
demanding Königsberg (Kaliningrad) back?
It would be fair to return North America to the indigenous Americans and
resettle the invaders back to Europe (and the people of African origin back
to Africa etc).
And all the jews back to the Middle East, insh'Allah!
- -
"We CAN hide forever."
- Klaun Shittinb'ricks (1940 - ), acknowledging that he will
NEVER prove where he infests or give his real jew name

"Die Juden sind unser Unglück!"
- Heinrich von Treitschke (1834 - 1896)

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade
Unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Trade
Unionist. Then they came for the jews, and I did not speak out
because I did not give a shit. Then they came for me and there
wasn't a single commie bastard left to speak for me."
- Martin Niemöller (1892 - 1984)
The Peeler
2017-07-13 15:08:15 UTC
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On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 06:14:28 -0700, serbian bitch Razovic, the resident
psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous sexual cripple, making an ass
of herself as "jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry'
Post by jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
Post by Oleg Smirnov
It would be fair to return North America to the indigenous Americans and
resettle the invaders back to Europe (and the people of African origin back
to Africa etc).
And all the jews back to the Middle East, insh'Allah!
YOU back in the loony bin again, dumb anal Razovic!
--
P-Dub to G. Razovic, the serb sexual cripple:
"You are a nothing. You have no skills. You have no job. You have no
woman. You can't have sex."
MID: <h6W8t.368009$***@newsfe03.iad>
facist 'new' labour rules the world
2017-07-13 15:36:55 UTC
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Post by jew pedophile Ron Jacobson (jew pedophile Baruch 'Barry' Shein's jew aliash)
Post by Oleg Smirnov
"tim..." wrote in message
Post by tim...
perhaps Poland should give Silesia [1] back to Germany
and Western Ukraine should be returned to Poland
instead, as just one example
I wonder how the Russkies would feel about Germany
demanding Königsberg (Kaliningrad) back?
It would be fair to return North America to the indigenous Americans and
resettle the invaders back to Europe (and the people of African origin back
to Africa etc).
And all the jews back to the Middle East, insh'Allah!
- -
"We CAN hide forever."
- Klaun Shittinb'ricks (1940 - ), acknowledging that he will
NEVER prove where he infests or give his real jew name
"Die Juden sind unser Unglück!"
- Heinrich von Treitschke (1834 - 1896)
"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out
because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade
Unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a Trade
Unionist. Then they came for the jews, and I did not speak out
because I did not give a shit. Then they came for me and there
wasn't a single commie bastard left to speak for me."
- Martin Niemöller (1892 - 1984)
We don't have any right to Gibraltar, as our secret service attempt to prevent a military paedophile (one of many hundred, allegedly) from escaping Gibraltan justice about a year ago proved beyond doubt.


This was prevented from becoming mainstream news by the freemason network, which is why they should be made illegal.


Ok, I understand that the bloody freemasons are similar to the friendly local golf club, and do much good work for charity - BUT SO DID JIMMY SAVILE.
--
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http://www.mimousenet.com/mimo/post
Dennis
2017-08-09 06:09:18 UTC
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Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Byker
Post by tim...
perhaps Poland should give Silesia [1] back to Germany
and Western Ukraine should be returned to Poland
instead, as just one example
I wonder how the Russkies would feel about Germany
demanding Königsberg (Kaliningrad) back?
It would be fair to return North America to the indigenous Americans
and resettle the invaders back to Europe (and the people of African
origin back to Africa etc).
The process of restoration of justice might be started from Hawaii.
Hawaii is under illegal US occupation for about a century, - in the
1890s there was an anti-constitutional 'regime change' implemented by
the American agents and backed by the US army, after which Hawaii was
illegally annexed.
Read the history of the Balkans and the Net posts of their present-day
denizens. Every present-day country in the Balkans remembers the time over
7 centuries ago when it was the king of the hill before the Turks or the
Hapsburgs took over, and wants to that status quo ante.

Those who cannot remember their past are doomed to repeat it, perhaps, but
there are those who cause themselves untold misery because they cannot let
go of their past..

Dennis
Oleg Smirnov
2017-08-10 07:01:09 UTC
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Post by Dennis
Post by Oleg Smirnov
Post by Byker
Post by tim...
perhaps Poland should give Silesia [1] back to Germany
and Western Ukraine should be returned to Poland
instead, as just one example
I wonder how the Russkies would feel about Germany
demanding Königsberg (Kaliningrad) back?
It would be fair to return North America to the
indigenous Americans and resettle the invaders back to
Europe (and the people of African origin back to Africa
etc).
The process of restoration of justice might be started
from Hawaii.
Hawaii is under illegal US occupation for about a
century, - in the 1890s there was an anti-constitutional
'regime change' implemented by the American agents and
backed by the US army, after which Hawaii was illegally
annexed.
Read the history of the Balkans and the Net posts of
their present-day denizens. Every present-day country in
the Balkans remembers the time over 7 centuries ago when
it was the king of the hill before the Turks or the
Hapsburgs took over, and wants to that status quo ante.
Those who cannot remember their past are doomed to repeat
it, perhaps, but there are those who cause themselves
untold misery because they cannot let go of their past..
Are you German?

Try to teach 'Byker' something.

Fredxxx
2017-07-13 00:57:59 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
If you hate the British so much and what the UK stands for, why do you
stay? Apart from getting free NHS treatment?

Why don't you whinge about the Canary islands, or Ceuta, or Mellila? Or
doesn't that suit your anti-UK stance?

Do you support the referendum on the 1st October?
Incubus
2017-07-13 08:13:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
If you hate the British so much and what the UK stands for, why do you
stay? Apart from getting free NHS treatment?
Why don't you whinge about the Canary islands, or Ceuta, or Mellila? Or
doesn't that suit your anti-UK stance?
Do you support the referendum on the 1st October?
He's just a troll who writes frivolous posts knowing that a group of
people will write predictable replies. Stop dancing for him.
Bod
2017-07-13 08:20:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Incubus
Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
If you hate the British so much and what the UK stands for, why do you
stay? Apart from getting free NHS treatment?
Why don't you whinge about the Canary islands, or Ceuta, or Mellila?
Or doesn't that suit your anti-UK stance?
Do you support the referendum on the 1st October?
He's just a troll who writes frivolous posts knowing that a group of
people will write predictable replies. Stop dancing for him.
Is it true that MM is a love child of Juncker?
abelard
2017-07-13 09:08:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bod
Post by Incubus
Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
If you hate the British so much and what the UK stands for, why do you
stay? Apart from getting free NHS treatment?
Why don't you whinge about the Canary islands, or Ceuta, or Mellila?
Or doesn't that suit your anti-UK stance?
Do you support the referendum on the 1st October?
He's just a troll who writes frivolous posts knowing that a group of
people will write predictable replies. Stop dancing for him.
Is it true that MM is a love child of Juncker?
a hate child
Drusilla Mitchell
2017-07-13 10:23:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Incubus
Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
If you hate the British so much and what the UK stands for, why do you
stay? Apart from getting free NHS treatment?
Why don't you whinge about the Canary islands, or Ceuta, or Mellila?
Or doesn't that suit your anti-UK stance?
Do you support the referendum on the 1st October?
He's just a troll who writes frivolous posts knowing that a group of
people will write predictable replies. Stop dancing for him.
Is it true that MM is a love child of Juncker?

No Megele.
saracene
2017-07-13 10:25:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bod
Post by Incubus
Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
If you hate the British so much and what the UK stands for, why do you
stay? Apart from getting free NHS treatment?
Why don't you whinge about the Canary islands, or Ceuta, or Mellila?
Or doesn't that suit your anti-UK stance?
Do you support the referendum on the 1st October?
He's just a troll who writes frivolous posts knowing that a group of
people will write predictable replies. Stop dancing for him.
Is it true that MM is a love child of Juncker?
No Megele.
Mengele?
MM
2017-07-18 08:11:35 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 03:25:31 -0700 (PDT), saracene
Post by saracene
Post by Bod
Post by Incubus
Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
If you hate the British so much and what the UK stands for, why do you
stay? Apart from getting free NHS treatment?
Why don't you whinge about the Canary islands, or Ceuta, or Mellila?
Or doesn't that suit your anti-UK stance?
Do you support the referendum on the 1st October?
He's just a troll who writes frivolous posts knowing that a group of
people will write predictable replies. Stop dancing for him.
Is it true that MM is a love child of Juncker?
No Megele.
Mengele?
No, Sid means Bert Megele, one of my ancestors from Africa.

MM

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MM
2017-07-18 08:10:23 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:23:57 +0100, "Drusilla Mitchell"
Post by Bod
Post by Incubus
Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
If you hate the British so much and what the UK stands for, why do you
stay? Apart from getting free NHS treatment?
Why don't you whinge about the Canary islands, or Ceuta, or Mellila?
Or doesn't that suit your anti-UK stance?
Do you support the referendum on the 1st October?
He's just a troll who writes frivolous posts knowing that a group of
people will write predictable replies. Stop dancing for him.
Is it true that MM is a love child of Juncker?
No Megele.
How is Brexit doing at the moment, Sid?

MM

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James Wilkinson Sword
2017-07-14 22:54:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bod
Post by Incubus
Post by Fredxxx
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
If you hate the British so much and what the UK stands for, why do you
stay? Apart from getting free NHS treatment?
Why don't you whinge about the Canary islands, or Ceuta, or Mellila?
Or doesn't that suit your anti-UK stance?
Do you support the referendum on the 1st October?
He's just a troll who writes frivolous posts knowing that a group of
people will write predictable replies. Stop dancing for him.
Is it true that MM is a love child of Juncker?
MM got something wrong above: "everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today". Funny how almost everyone accepted it then. "Wrong" is an opinion and nothing more. I for one would love the slave trade to come back. Hands up who wouldn't want someone to do everything for you for free? Those Muslims have got to be useful for something.
--
What is the difference between a female jogger and a sewing machine?
A sewing machine only has one bobbin.
The Peeler
2017-07-14 23:07:28 UTC
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On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 23:54:53 +0100, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
Post by James Wilkinson Sword
Post by Bod
Is it true that MM is a love child of Juncker?
MM got something wrong above: "everyone knows it was wrong then and is
wrong today". Funny how almost everyone accepted it then. "Wrong" is an
opinion and nothing more. I for one would love the slave trade to come
back. Hands up who wouldn't want someone to do everything for you for
free? Those Muslims have got to be useful for something.
Can't you do ANYTHING but reveal what a congenital idiot you are, Birdbrain?
LOL
--
ItsJoanNotJoann addressing Birdbrain Macaw's (now "James Wilkinson" LOL):
"You're an annoying troll and I'm done with you and your
stupidity."
MID: <e39a6a7f-9677-4e78-a866-***@googlegroups.com>
c***@googlemail.com
2017-07-13 19:14:30 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
MM
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http://www.avg.com
There were no laws of war back then. 90 % of people living there now want to remain run by the British, and most are ethnically spanish, so what about arguements of natural justice and self-determination.

Nations are a sort of myth really, and perhaps Gibralter offends the Spanish national myth. Spain also has a few dependancies of its own left though doesn't it?
m***@btopenworld.com
2017-07-14 07:54:34 UTC
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Post by c***@googlemail.com
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
There were no laws of war back then. 90 % of people living there now want to remain run by the British, and most are ethnically spanish, so what about arguements of natural justice and self-determination.
There was also the Treaty of Utrecht which I internationally recognised. This treaty ceded Gibraltar to the UK in 1713 as was Minorca though the latter was ceded to Spain by the Treat of Amiens in 1802.

Thus is the legal basis of UK sovereignty over the territory.

These days we have a UN which unanimously supports the principle of self determination for colonial territories. It would appear therefore that so long as the peoples of both the Falklands wish it, these territories will remain as dependencies of the UK. Unless there is a change of heart on the part of these peoples there seems no reason why Gib should be ceded to Spain or the Falkands to Argentina and there s no international pressure outside Spain and Argentina so to do.

The people of Gibraltar in the main are not Spanish and owe their origins to a multiplicity of old British colonial possessions and there is no allegiance from them to Spain. When "the Rock" was taken over it was uninhabited and covered in scrub so great was the Spanish need of it.

Anyway where would we globe trotters go for our duty free shopping? I myself have spend quite a few quid in Gib over the years and hopefully will do again.

It should not be allowed to become a Spanish tax cow.
Post by c***@googlemail.com
Nations are a sort of myth really, and perhaps Gibralter offends the Spanish national myth. Spain also has a few dependancies of its own left though doesn't it?
MM
2017-07-18 08:13:30 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by c***@googlemail.com
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
MM
---
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http://www.avg.com
There were no laws of war back then. 90 % of people living there now want to remain run by the British, and most are ethnically spanish, so what about arguements of natural justice and self-determination.
There was also the Treaty of Utrecht which I internationally recognised. This treaty ceded Gibraltar to the UK in 1713 as was Minorca though the latter was ceded to Spain by the Treat of Amiens in 1802.
Thus is the legal basis of UK sovereignty over the territory.
These days we have a UN which unanimously supports the principle of self determination for colonial territories. It would appear therefore that so long as the peoples of both the Falklands wish it, these territories will remain as dependencies of the UK. Unless there is a change of heart on the part of these peoples there seems no reason why Gib should be ceded to Spain or the Falkands to Argentina and there s no international pressure outside Spain and Argentina so to do.
The people of Gibraltar in the main are not Spanish and owe their origins to a multiplicity of old British colonial possessions and there is no allegiance from them to Spain. When "the Rock" was taken over it was uninhabited and covered in scrub so great was the Spanish need of it.
Anyway where would we globe trotters go for our duty free shopping? I myself have spend quite a few quid in Gib over the years and hopefully will do again.
It should not be allowed to become a Spanish tax cow.
All the Spanish need do is pay every "Brit" on the rock a million
pounds to leave, and they'd be gone in a trice.

MM
A. Filip
2017-07-18 08:42:23 UTC
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MM <***@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
Post by MM
All the Spanish need do is pay every "Brit" on the rock a million
pounds to leave, and they'd be gone in a trice.
MM
It will produce incredible number of "Brit" on the rock and demands by
more entrepreneurial for even more, much more.

Gibraltar is British by centuries of status quo.
It should not be easy to change.
--
A. Filip
| Love is an obsessive delusion that is cured by marriage.
| -- Dr. Karl Bowman
m***@btopenworld.com
2017-07-18 08:50:40 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by c***@googlemail.com
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
There were no laws of war back then. 90 % of people living there now want to remain run by the British, and most are ethnically spanish, so what about arguements of natural justice and self-determination.
There was also the Treaty of Utrecht which I internationally recognised. This treaty ceded Gibraltar to the UK in 1713 as was Minorca though the latter was ceded to Spain by the Treat of Amiens in 1802.
Thus is the legal basis of UK sovereignty over the territory.
These days we have a UN which unanimously supports the principle of self determination for colonial territories. It would appear therefore that so long as the peoples of both the Falklands wish it, these territories will remain as dependencies of the UK. Unless there is a change of heart on the part of these peoples there seems no reason why Gib should be ceded to Spain or the Falkands to Argentina and there s no international pressure outside Spain and Argentina so to do.
The people of Gibraltar in the main are not Spanish and owe their origins to a multiplicity of old British colonial possessions and there is no allegiance from them to Spain. When "the Rock" was taken over it was uninhabited and covered in scrub so great was the Spanish need of it.
Anyway where would we globe trotters go for our duty free shopping? I myself have spend quite a few quid in Gib over the years and hopefully will do again.
It should not be allowed to become a Spanish tax cow.
All the Spanish need do is pay every "Brit" on the rock a million
pounds to leave, and they'd be gone in a trice.
MM
You mean buy Gibraltar?

Have you ever calculated what the real estate value of Gibraltar is? Hotels? Marinas? Shops? restaurants and bars etc.? Port facilities? The cruise trade alone must bring in billions.

It would cost a bit more that £29bn (29000 x 1m) and for every Gibraltarian who left there would be someone else only too ready to move in.

Unemployment rate is officially 1% (In reality 0%) There at so many jobs that 10-12000 Spaniards from job starved Algeciras and La Linea cross the border every day to fill them all. None of these job seekers has even the slightest chance of settling there.


What about the airport owned by the MoD along with other military installations?
JNugent
2017-07-21 00:46:50 UTC
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Post by MM
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by c***@googlemail.com
Post by MM
Britain once had a thriving business in the slave trade, but now
everyone knows it was wrong then and is wrong today.
Britain captured, i.e. stole, Gibraltar by force in 1704, so wasn't
that an illegal act of war? I'm not surprised that Spain wants it
back.
MM
---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com
There were no laws of war back then. 90 % of people living there now want to remain run by the British, and most are ethnically spanish, so what about arguements of natural justice and self-determination.
There was also the Treaty of Utrecht which I internationally recognised. This treaty ceded Gibraltar to the UK in 1713 as was Minorca though the latter was ceded to Spain by the Treat of Amiens in 1802.
Thus is the legal basis of UK sovereignty over the territory.
These days we have a UN which unanimously supports the principle of self determination for colonial territories. It would appear therefore that so long as the peoples of both the Falklands wish it, these territories will remain as dependencies of the UK. Unless there is a change of heart on the part of these peoples there seems no reason why Gib should be ceded to Spain or the Falkands to Argentina and there s no international pressure outside Spain and Argentina so to do.
The people of Gibraltar in the main are not Spanish and owe their origins to a multiplicity of old British colonial possessions and there is no allegiance from them to Spain. When "the Rock" was taken over it was uninhabited and covered in scrub so great was the Spanish need of it.
Anyway where would we globe trotters go for our duty free shopping? I myself have spend quite a few quid in Gib over the years and hopefully will do again.
It should not be allowed to become a Spanish tax cow.
All the Spanish need do is pay every "Brit" on the rock a million
pounds to leave, and they'd be gone in a trice.
If that were to happen, I would take the place of one of them.

I suspect that many others would do the same. It would only take about
25,000 of us to completely replace the cleared-off millionaires.

And being a resident, with the vote, I would not vote to hand over
British territory to a foreign country. Would you? Of course you wouldn't.
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