Discussion:
Stop talking Britain down, Remainers: We hold the aces, and the EU is desperate for a deal.
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Ophelia
2017-08-17 10:18:53 UTC
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"The recent reassuring words of the Chancellor and the Trade Secretary do
not detract from the fact that Project Fear is still going strong. The
summer of scaremongering by Remainers, trying to obstruct Britain's exit
from the European Union, includes the pretence that we must pay a colossal
£36bn 'divorce bill' to break the deadlock in negotiations."

"There is nothing in Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty that stipulates we have
to pay a fine or settle a "divorce bill". That is a fiction, a spurious
invention. In fact, there would be nothing wrong with walking away without a
deal and paying nothing. It would be entirely legal, and it might make the
best business sense."

"Our negotiators ought to be in a powerful, even dominant position at this
stage. The European Commission desperately needs our money, and is ready to
buckle to our demands. If we make it plain that we're willing to walk away
without paying a penny, we have enormous leverage."

"Thanks to the fall in sterling since the referendum, British export
businesses are able to sell more cheaply to foreign markets. This makes our
goods even more competitive, which in turn increases British profits. That
could be offset against the cost of the tariffs - the government would not
need to fully compensate firms, because the natural laws of economics would
be doing that already.

All this adds up to one basic fact: we mustn't pay more for a free trade
arrangement (FTA) than it is worth. And unless the EU is prepared to
implement the deal fully before Britain leaves, then we shouldn't pay at
all."

"Disastrously and not withstanding his recent pronouncements, it appears
that the Chancellor is trying to salvage a second-rate version of the
current EU agreement, and he seems willing to do this at a very high cost.
In this he is backed, not by small British businesses, but by the vested
interests of the multi-nationals and foreign owned companies."

"If he is not capable of grasping the opportunities, or prepared to fight
for Britain's best future, he should be sacked as soon as possible and
replaced by someone who will"

"The bottom line is that Remainers and Brexit saboteurs keep telling us that
Britain is in a weak negotiating position. They are lying. We hold the aces,
and the EU is desperate to make a deal with us."



The whole piece here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/14/stop-talking-britain-remainers-hold-aces-eu-desperate-deal-us/


thanks to RH
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
James Harris
2017-09-08 16:09:50 UTC
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...
Post by Ophelia
"The bottom line is that Remainers and Brexit saboteurs keep telling us that
Britain is in a weak negotiating position. They are lying. We hold the aces,
and the EU is desperate to make a deal with us."
Wow. Brexiteers do hold to their position largely as an item of faith
Some do. Just as some Remainers hold that Brexit will be a disaster.
Neither position is reasonable. The reality is likely to more nuanced
and subject to UK influence.
--
James Harris
tim...
2017-09-10 17:13:21 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by James Harris
...
Post by Ophelia
"The bottom line is that Remainers and Brexit saboteurs keep telling us that
Britain is in a weak negotiating position. They are lying. We hold the aces,
and the EU is desperate to make a deal with us."
Wow. Brexiteers do hold to their position largely as an item of faith
Some do. Just as some Remainers hold that Brexit will be a disaster.
Neither position is reasonable. The reality is likely to more nuanced and
subject to UK influence.
Katie Adler was on Marr this morning discussing the newspaper's reporting of
the negotiations.

AFAICT she is a Brexit-neutral voice with as good an understanding of how
the EU works as anyone.

And basically what she was saying is that the EU are currently in their
normal bulling mode of trying to get the other side to accept the deal where
they get everything that they want whilst offering almost nothing to the
other side, just as they did (still are doing) with Greece.

But Greece is a tin pot little country who the EU can afford to have say
"fuck off, you've got to be joking" and walk away, if they push too hard.
(We're *still* in the "What Katie said" part, BTW).

But the UK is not Greece. It is the 5th (6th) largest economy in the world
and the EU *cannot* afford the loss of trade and political/military/whatever
else support we give them should they push us too far and we say "fuck off"
and walk away. The EU *will* make the necessary concessions once they have
got the message that the bullying isn't going to work.

They will climb down - at 2 seconds to midnight, just like they always do.

tim
Post by James Harris
--
James Harris
Ophelia
2017-09-10 20:16:43 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by James Harris
...
Post by Ophelia
"The bottom line is that Remainers and Brexit saboteurs keep telling us that
Britain is in a weak negotiating position. They are lying. We hold the aces,
and the EU is desperate to make a deal with us."
Wow. Brexiteers do hold to their position largely as an item of faith
Some do. Just as some Remainers hold that Brexit will be a disaster.
Neither position is reasonable. The reality is likely to more nuanced and
subject to UK influence.
Katie Adler was on Marr this morning discussing the newspaper's reporting of
the negotiations.

AFAICT she is a Brexit-neutral voice with as good an understanding of how
the EU works as anyone.

And basically what she was saying is that the EU are currently in their
normal bulling mode of trying to get the other side to accept the deal where
they get everything that they want whilst offering almost nothing to the
other side, just as they did (still are doing) with Greece.

But Greece is a tin pot little country who the EU can afford to have say
"fuck off, you've got to be joking" and walk away, if they push too hard.
(We're *still* in the "What Katie said" part, BTW).

But the UK is not Greece. It is the 5th (6th) largest economy in the world
and the EU *cannot* afford the loss of trade and political/military/whatever
else support we give them should they push us too far and we say "fuck off"
and walk away. The EU *will* make the necessary concessions once they have
got the message that the bullying isn't going to work.

They will climb down - at 2 seconds to midnight, just like they always do.

tim

==

:)))
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
James Harris
2017-09-11 09:28:05 UTC
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On 10/09/2017 18:13, tim... wrote:

...
Post by tim...
The EU *will* make the necessary concessions once they have
got the message that the bullying isn't going to work.
Which in a way makes it a pity that the UK is already offering an
extension on existing terms...
--
James Harris
tim...
2017-09-11 10:00:02 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by James Harris
...
Post by tim...
The EU *will* make the necessary concessions once they have
got the message that the bullying isn't going to work.
Which in a way makes it a pity that the UK is already offering an
extension on existing terms...
That's a problem with the party's political posturing

our negotiators saying "we accept that there will need to be an
implementation period (during which we may continue to contribute etc etc)"

does not mean

"we accept that there will be a period after the leaving date where we are
still negotiating the finer points of the deal"

unfortunately, too many of the political classes tuned the former into the
latter

tim
James Harris
2017-09-11 12:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by James Harris
...
Post by tim...
The EU *will* make the necessary concessions once they have
got the message that the bullying isn't going to work.
Which in a way makes it a pity that the UK is already offering an
extension on existing terms...
That's a problem with the party's political posturing
our negotiators saying "we accept that there will need to be an
implementation period (during which we may continue to contribute etc etc)"
does not mean
"we accept that there will be a period after the leaving date where we are
still negotiating the finer points of the deal"
unfortunately, too many of the political classes tuned the former into the
latter
That's a problem which would have been partially addressed if the
Conservatives had got a majority. They had been engaged in a balancing
act before; it is even more tricky now. They need to negotiate not just
with Brussels but also with the Opposition, the Commons, the Lords (with
its disproportionate LibDem presence), the media and public opinion.
That's quite a set of "bad guys" arrayed against them.

As an example, they previously said "no deal is better than a bad deal".
That was said as part of the pre-negotiation with Brussels. The logic
being that some Europeans speak of giving the UK a punishment deal. If
they try to do that then they should remember that we can walk away. But
it was picked up by the Opposition and has repeatedly been used since to
decry "a hard Tory Brexit" and falsely to claim that the government
wants to turn us into "a tax haven on the shores of Europe". In other
words, a phrase used as part of the negotiation with Brussels became a
weapon that was used by the Opposition.

Now, sans a majority, the government has to be even more clever as to
what it can and what it cannot do and say.
--
James Harris
m***@btopenworld.com
2017-09-11 10:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by tim...
Post by James Harris
...
Post by Ophelia
"The bottom line is that Remainers and Brexit saboteurs keep telling us that
Britain is in a weak negotiating position. They are lying. We hold the aces,
and the EU is desperate to make a deal with us."
Wow. Brexiteers do hold to their position largely as an item of faith
Some do. Just as some Remainers hold that Brexit will be a disaster.
Neither position is reasonable. The reality is likely to more nuanced and
subject to UK influence.
Katie Adler was on Marr this morning discussing the newspaper's reporting of
the negotiations.
AFAICT she is a Brexit-neutral voice with as good an understanding of how
the EU works as anyone.
And basically what she was saying is that the EU are currently in their
normal bulling mode of trying to get the other side to accept the deal where
they get everything that they want whilst offering almost nothing to the
other side, just as they did (still are doing) with Greece.
But Greece is a tin pot little country who the EU can afford to have say
"fuck off, you've got to be joking" and walk away, if they push too hard.
(We're *still* in the "What Katie said" part, BTW).
But the UK is not Greece. It is the 5th (6th) largest economy in the world
and the EU *cannot* afford the loss of trade and political/military/whatever
else support we give them should they push us too far and we say "fuck off"
and walk away. The EU *will* make the necessary concessions once they have
got the message that the bullying isn't going to work.
They will climb down - at 2 seconds to midnight, just like they always do.
I've been saying this since day 1.

The best deal we are going to get from Europe stands at the other side of Brexit. We will get nowhere swapping and haggling over 'position papers'. Instead, let them see how little effect Brexit has on us. If they wish to preserve their trade surplus, they will come to terms.

WE are not asking for very much, just those concessions the EU seems anxious to offer to non EU countries but without strings attached.
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