Discussion:
Who Should We Believe
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Omega
2019-09-07 18:13:16 UTC
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Permalink
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.

Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.

How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?

omega
The Todal
2019-09-07 18:21:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter will
be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The
Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The
Groom of the Stool?

And then Boris can give a pompous crowd-pleasing speech about how it
pained him greatly to see the letter and he couldn't bring himself to
sign it. Applause, cheers, and the ladies will throw their knickers at him.
Omega
2019-09-07 18:32:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter will
be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The
Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The
Groom of the Stool?
And then Boris can give a pompous crowd-pleasing speech about how it
pained him greatly to see the letter and he couldn't bring himself to
sign it. Applause, cheers, and the ladies will throw their knickers at him.
I suppose the Groom of the Stool could have his letter written on
lavatory paper to induce a disdainful 'non' from our European friends?

omega
James Hammerton
2019-09-07 19:02:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter will
be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The
Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The
Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or
Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must
seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at the
required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone
else from signing it other than the PM.

But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?

Regards,

James
Norman Wells
2019-09-07 22:16:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or
Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must
seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at the
required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone
else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
It could well pan out as I've posted elsewhwere earlier today:

He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.

Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
Roger
2019-09-07 23:19:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or
Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must
seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at the
required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone
else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
I think Corbyn would rather enjoy pitching himself as they only way the independent UK could defend itself from the raw libertarian world of Johnsonites.

As for Lib Dems they're used to changing their pitch...10 years ago they were fighting the Lisbon treay....

I think if the UK leaves we will see Remainers turning into people 'trying to make the best of a bad job in the interest of Democracy'.

If the UK remains we'll see Brexiters reformulating into a movement for curtailing the activity of the EU from the inside out (presumably aligned with all the other movements out their with similar ideas). This is actually a good motive for Europhiles to refuse a Brexit extension.
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 07:52:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017
-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or
Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must
seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at the
required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone
else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
Pure genius.
tim...
2019-09-08 08:05:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter will
be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The
Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The
Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or
Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must
seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at the
required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone
else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows a
Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension letter
until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this

tim
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 08:36:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway.  It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter.  There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
GB
2019-09-08 09:00:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said
it will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by
Parliament or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister"
specifically must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October.
Looking at the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried
to prevent someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway.  It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on
the 19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place
to send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter.  There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government
business, including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution?  If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
You are, once again, arguing semantics rather than substance. If we need
a replacement PM, one will be appointed. Perhaps just to deal with any
loose ends left by Boris and to supervise the election of a new one.
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 10:11:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely
not ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put
him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said
it will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The
letter will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris
Johnson. The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's
Secretary? The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by
Parliament or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister"
specifically must seek the extension by the end of the 19th
October. Looking at the required wording of the letter they've
clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it other than
the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway.  It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on
the 19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place
to send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter.  There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government
business, including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution?  If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
You are, once again, arguing semantics rather than substance. If we need
a replacement PM, one will be appointed.
Oh yeah? Who, how, when?
Post by GB
Perhaps just to deal with any
loose ends left by Boris and to supervise the election of a new one.
How will that work then? How can someone 'be appointed' just to deal
with loose ends?
Roger
2019-09-08 10:49:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by GB
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely
not ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put
him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said
it will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The
letter will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris
Johnson. The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's
Secretary? The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by
Parliament or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister"
specifically must seek the extension by the end of the 19th
October. Looking at the required wording of the letter they've
clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it other than
the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway.  It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on
the 19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place
to send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter.  There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government
business, including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution?  If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
You are, once again, arguing semantics rather than substance. If we need
a replacement PM, one will be appointed.
Oh yeah? Who, how, when?
Post by GB
Perhaps just to deal with any
loose ends left by Boris and to supervise the election of a new one.
How will that work then? How can someone 'be appointed' just to deal
with loose ends?
Loose ends such as signing a Brexit Extension that risks plunging
the country into civil war?
One wonders what this caretaker PM would NOT be allowed to do :D
tim...
2019-09-08 11:35:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
Post by tim...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
You are, once again, arguing semantics rather than substance. If we need
a replacement PM, one will be appointed.
Oh yeah? Who, how, when?
I'm sure they'll agree on someone when the time comes

What other choice do they have?
Post by Norman Wells
Post by GB
Perhaps just to deal with any loose ends left by Boris and to supervise
the election of a new one.
How will that work then? How can someone 'be appointed' just to deal with
loose ends?
Because the agreement from the exiled-Tories [1] who will have to prop up
the appointed person will be know (by the protagonists) to expire once the
tidying up is done.

It will be a Gentlemen's agreement, not a rule of law

tim

[1] Or Labour if the appointed person is an exiled Tory
GB
2019-09-08 12:57:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by GB
You are, once again, arguing semantics rather than substance. If we
need a replacement PM, one will be appointed.
Oh yeah?  Who, how, when?
I'm sure they'll agree on someone when the time comes
What other choice do they have?
Post by GB
Perhaps just to deal with any loose ends left by Boris and to
supervise the election of a new one.
How will that work then?  How can someone 'be appointed' just to deal
with loose ends?
Because the agreement from the exiled-Tories [1] who will have to prop
up the appointed person will be know (by the protagonists) to expire
once the tidying up is done.
It will be a Gentlemen's agreement, not a rule of law
Norman knew that all perfectly well, but it's part of his personality
(or at least his online personality) that he simply won't back down. I
hope he's not like that in real life.
Post by tim...
tim
[1] Or Labour if the appointed person is an exiled Tory
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 13:02:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by GB
Post by Norman Wells
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely
not ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put
him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has
said it will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The
letter will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than
Boris Johnson. The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The
Queen's Secretary? The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by
Parliament or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime
Minister" specifically must seek the extension by the end of the
19th October. Looking at the required wording of the letter
they've clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it
other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway.  It has to come from
the departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on
the 19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in
place to send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter.  There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until
early November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to
sign the extension letter until after we've left when it will be
too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government
business, including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution?
If there is, I haven't heard of it.
You are, once again, arguing semantics rather than substance. If we
need a replacement PM, one will be appointed.
Oh yeah?  Who, how, when?
I'm sure they'll agree on someone when the time comes
So, you have no idea then.
Post by tim...
What other choice do they have? >
Post by GB
Perhaps just to deal with any loose ends left by Boris and to
supervise the election of a new one.
How will that work then?  How can someone 'be appointed' just to deal
with loose ends?
Because the agreement from the exiled-Tories [1] who will have to prop
up the appointed person will be know (by the protagonists) to expire
once the tidying up is done.
Corbyn's the obvious front runner. Do you really think even exiled
Tories would give him their support to become Prime Minister?
Post by tim...
It will be a Gentlemen's agreement, not a rule of law
You think that can be trusted in this Parliament? I don't think exiled
Tories will.
Post by tim...
[1] Or Labour if the appointed person is an exiled Tory
The Todal
2019-09-08 15:31:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Corbyn's the obvious front runner.  Do you really think even exiled
Tories would give him their support to become Prime Minister?
Of course.

Perhaps you think that this would be like Chelsea fans defecting to Man
United. Unthinkable!

But our MPs take their role and their duties very seriously. They will
not let the nation go over a cliff merely to get party political
advantage. The disadvantage of letting Corbyn be PM is that the nation
will begin to see him as a real leader, not as the comical or sinister
mediocrity that the Tories have done their utmost to portray him as.

A bit like Boris Johnson, in other words. The talentless liar, comedian
and pundit (his only cabinet experience was as the worst Foreign
Secretary in living memory) was never seen as a potential Prime Minister
until suddenly after Theresa May resigned, all the other options looked
even worse than Boris.

But there's no doubt that Corbyn and the Labour Party would be willing
to make promises and to keep them, to co-operate in blocking a no-deal
Brexit and to move swiftly to a General Election after that.

The fact that a General Election will probably result in yet another
hung parliament and will in no way solve Brexit is a problem for the
future.
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 17:32:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Corbyn's the obvious front runner. Do you really think even exiled
Tories would give him their support to become Prime Minister?
Of course.
Perhaps you think that this would be like Chelsea fans defecting to Man
United. Unthinkable!.
Bollox.

How many Man U fans came from W London when they were winning everything?
Thousands.

Then Chelsea were in Div 1 and were full of shithead supporters with knives,
the Utd supporters even came from Kent, Surrey and Sussex.
tim...
2019-09-08 18:19:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Corbyn's the obvious front runner. Do you really think even exiled Tories
would give him their support to become Prime Minister?
Post by tim...
It will be a Gentlemen's agreement, not a rule of law
You think that can be trusted in this Parliament? I don't think exiled
Tories will.
they hold the balance of power

If they only support the Labour leader of choice to write this letter and
vote all other bills done, no harm can be done

Unless the rump-Tory party support Labour bills that is

tim
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 09:15:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in
gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_20
17-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
Don’t worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.

Actually, do worry.
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 10:07:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_20
17-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
Don’t worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course. It's just a
temporary, loose and fractious association of parties that have little
in common, and won't give significant support to any of the others
except on a single matter. And even on that they can't agree who their
leader should be.
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 10:40:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in
gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_
20
17-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
Don’t worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course. It's just a
temporary, loose and fractious association of parties that have little
in common, and won't give significant support to any of the others
except on a single matter.
Maybe, but it has set a very dangerous precedent.
And even on that they can't agree who their
leader should be.
tim...
2019-09-08 11:37:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will
definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put
him in
gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has
said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going
on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The
letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris
Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's
Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_
20
17-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
Don’t worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course. It's just a
temporary, loose and fractious association of parties that have little
in common, and won't give significant support to any of the others
except on a single matter.
Maybe, but it has set a very dangerous precedent.
In what way is it a precedent

do you really think such borrowing of votes hasn't happened before?

tim
tim...
2019-09-08 11:36:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_20
17-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
Don’t worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course.
There is a No Deal coalition

tim
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 13:03:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_20
17-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister"
specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
Don’t worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course.
There is a No Deal coalition
Who's its leader?

Who belongs?
Pamela
2019-09-08 12:21:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
On 8 Sep 2019, Norman Wells wrote (in article
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely
not ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put
him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said
it will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The
letter will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris
Johnson. The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's
Secretary? The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/
lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_20 17-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies
that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or
Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on
the 19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place
to send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government
business, including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
Don't worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course. It's just a
temporary, loose and fractious association of parties that have little
in common, and won't give significant support to any of the others
except on a single matter. And even on that they can't agree who their
leader should be.
Hatred of a British dictatorship can create the strangest of bedfellows.
Thanks to Boris a coalition has become far more likely.

Following Boris's attempt to silence Parliament and his misuse of the
power of his office, it won't take long before Parliament passes new laws
to permanently curb some of the powers of government.
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 13:05:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Don't worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course. It's just a
temporary, loose and fractious association of parties that have little
in common, and won't give significant support to any of the others
except on a single matter. And even on that they can't agree who their
leader should be.
Hatred of a British dictatorship can create the strangest of bedfellows.
Thanks to Boris a coalition has become far more likely.
Following Boris's attempt to silence Parliament and his misuse of the
power of his office, it won't take long before Parliament passes new laws
to permanently curb some of the powers of government.
In what way?
Pamela
2019-09-08 16:22:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Don't worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course. It's just a
temporary, loose and fractious association of parties that have little
in common, and won't give significant support to any of the others
except on a single matter. And even on that they can't agree who
their leader should be.
Hatred of a British dictatorship can create the strangest of
bedfellows. Thanks to Boris a coalition has become far more likely.
Following Boris's attempt to silence Parliament and his misuse of the
power of his office, it won't take long before Parliament passes new
laws to permanently curb some of the powers of government.
In what way?
Can't you feel a big change coming? Boris as a dishonest and scheming PM
has flouted convention and bent rules in an attempt to circumvent
Parliament -- largely for his own personal benefit at the cost to the
whole country.

Under the present arrangements the government has too many powers for
parliament to be comfortable it can do its job without impediment and
Boris has provided an example of what happens when they are misused.

There is much talk about how Boris has precipitated a constitutional
crisis and I expect the loopholes allowing the executive too much power to
be fixed. Perhaps such powers as such as the govt setting the
parliamentary agenda will get scrutinised and the legislature draw up news
ones.

Maybe greater sanctions for hostile witnesses, such as Dominic Cummings,
who refuse to appear before a select committee.

Change is coming.
Fredxx
2019-09-08 16:32:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Don't worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can get
anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course. It's just a
temporary, loose and fractious association of parties that have little
in common, and won't give significant support to any of the others
except on a single matter. And even on that they can't agree who
their leader should be.
Hatred of a British dictatorship can create the strangest of
bedfellows. Thanks to Boris a coalition has become far more likely.
Following Boris's attempt to silence Parliament and his misuse of the
power of his office, it won't take long before Parliament passes new
laws to permanently curb some of the powers of government.
In what way?
Can't you feel a big change coming?
Absolutely, the consequence of Parliament thwarting the will of the
people. Boris stands out from the rest of parliament.
Pamela
2019-09-08 16:45:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Don't worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can
get anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course. It's just a
temporary, loose and fractious association of parties that have
little in common, and won't give significant support to any of the
others except on a single matter. And even on that they can't agree
who their leader should be.
Hatred of a British dictatorship can create the strangest of
bedfellows. Thanks to Boris a coalition has become far more likely.
Following Boris's attempt to silence Parliament and his misuse of the
power of his office, it won't take long before Parliament passes new
laws to permanently curb some of the powers of government.
In what way?
Can't you feel a big change coming?
Absolutely, the consequence of Parliament thwarting the will of the
people. Boris stands out from the rest of parliament.
The people used a referendum to advise their representatives what they
would like (unicorns, lollipops, fireworks, ice cream).

Theresa May tried to to determine what was possible but for 3 years she
was hamstrung by hardliners.

Subsequently Boris attempts to implement No Deal, which goes against the
majority of the people and against the Tory manifesto.

Naughty boy Boris will now get restrained by the adults, who'll put him in
toddler reins and erect some safety gates.
Fredxx
2019-09-08 17:54:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Fredxx
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Don't worry, now the remain coalition control parliament they can
get anything they want.
Actually, do worry.
Except that there is no remain coalition of course. It's just a
temporary, loose and fractious association of parties that have
little in common, and won't give significant support to any of the
others except on a single matter. And even on that they can't agree
who their leader should be.
Hatred of a British dictatorship can create the strangest of
bedfellows. Thanks to Boris a coalition has become far more likely.
Following Boris's attempt to silence Parliament and his misuse of the
power of his office, it won't take long before Parliament passes new
laws to permanently curb some of the powers of government.
In what way?
Can't you feel a big change coming?
Absolutely, the consequence of Parliament thwarting the will of the
people. Boris stands out from the rest of parliament.
The people used a referendum to advise their representatives what they
would like (unicorns, lollipops, fireworks, ice cream)
The major parties didn't mention anything about your "unicorns,
lollipops, fireworks, ice cream", but they did promise to respect the
result from the referendum.

Trust you to resort to hyperbole to mask the true weakness of your argument.
Post by Pamela
Theresa May tried to to determine what was possible but for 3 years she
was hamstrung by hardliners.
By remainers, get it right. Instead they hoped there would be an
extension, then another, then .................

Then Boris to the rescue.
Sn!pe
2019-09-08 17:00:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Pamela <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[...]
Post by Pamela
Maybe greater sanctions for hostile witnesses, such as Dominic Cummings,
who refuse to appear before a select committee.
Is it not the case that Cummings was prepared to give
evidence -under oath- if the Committee reciprocated?
--
^Ï^ My pet rock Gordon notes that
"Monsieur Macron, il dit non."
Pamela
2019-09-08 17:38:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
[...]
Post by Pamela
Maybe greater sanctions for hostile witnesses, such as Dominic Cummings,
who refuse to appear before a select committee.
Is it not the case that Cummings was prepared to give
evidence -under oath- if the Committee reciprocated?
MPs voted to determine that Cummings had broken the rules by failing to
appear when called before a select committee. Cummings tried to make his
excuses but none of them stuck.
Sn!pe
2019-09-08 17:46:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Sn!pe
[...]
Post by Pamela
Maybe greater sanctions for hostile witnesses, such as Dominic Cummings,
who refuse to appear before a select committee.
Is it not the case that Cummings was prepared to give
evidence -under oath- if the Committee reciprocated?
MPs voted to determine that Cummings had broken the rules by failing to
appear when called before a select committee. Cummings tried to make his
excuses but none of them stuck.
Did the MPs have a majority? Which excuses failed to stick?
--
^Ï^ My pet rock Gordon notes that
"Monsieur Macron, il dit non."
Roger
2019-09-08 10:40:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway.  It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter.  There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
When the UK get's a constitution I'll tell you.
tim...
2019-09-08 11:31:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by tim...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at the
required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone
else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
You will note that I didn't user a capital letter

So you interpret that as: a person who is PM for an intended temporary
period

tim
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 13:09:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by tim...
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely
not ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put
him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said
it will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The
letter will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris
Johnson. The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's
Secretary? The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by
Parliament or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister"
specifically must seek the extension by the end of the 19th
October. Looking at the required wording of the letter they've
clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it other than
the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway.  It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on
the 19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place
to send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter.  There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government
business, including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution?  If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
You will note that I didn't user a capital letter
So you interpret that as: a person who is PM for an intended temporary
period
That's then someone who is appointed as actual Prime Minister who is
expected on his honour to resign after a certain time, or what? Who,
and when?
tim...
2019-09-08 18:21:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by tim...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by tim...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1)
specifies that unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament
or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically
must seek the extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at
the required wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent
someone else from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
surely a temporary PM would be appointed to handle government business,
including doing this
Is there any such position as 'temporary PM' in our constitution? If
there is, I haven't heard of it.
You will note that I didn't user a capital letter
So you interpret that as: a person who is PM for an intended temporary
period
That's then someone who is appointed as actual Prime Minister who is
expected on his honour to resign after a certain time, or what? Who, and
when?
No it's expected that the Tories will quickly raise a VoC and the exiled
Tories will support that

And I've told you

It doesn't matter that we can't name that person now.

tim
Pamela
2019-09-08 08:48:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a
deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has backed
"no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the extension by
the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required wording of the
letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it
other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail son
many counts.

(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if the PM
flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.

(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on account
of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If other
parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's sabotage,
nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.

(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the government's
call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks the good of the
country in the long term is better served by not calling for an election
then he will do just that.

(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris does
not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.

You have less idea about all this than Dominic Cummings.
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 10:24:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a
deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has backed
"no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the extension by
the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required wording of the
letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it
other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail son
many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if the PM
flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on account
of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If other
parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's sabotage,
nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then? How much support will he or she be able
to muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern? Do please give your
calculations and time scale.
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the government's
call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks the good of the
country in the long term is better served by not calling for an election
then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government. Everyone
knows that. Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate will
rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
Post by Pamela
(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris does
not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal, which is the
scenario. They will have achieved everything they stand for. And
Farage has said in such circumstances that he would give Boris his full
support. So, Boris will get the vast majority of the Brexit Party's
votes while the remain parties remain irreconcilably split.
Post by Pamela
You have less idea about all this than Dominic Cummings.
Who says?
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 10:45:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in
gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a
deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has backed
"no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the extension by
the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required wording of the
letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it
other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail son
many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if the PM
flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on account
of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If other
parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's sabotage,
nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then? How much support will he or she be able
to muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern? Do please give your
calculations and time scale.
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the government's
call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks the good of the
country in the long term is better served by not calling for an election
then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government. Everyone
knows that. Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate will
rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
Post by Pamela
(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris does
not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal, which is the
scenario. They will have achieved everything they stand for. And
Farage has said in such circumstances that he would give Boris his full
support. So, Boris will get the vast majority of the Brexit Party's
votes while the remain parties remain irreconcilably split.
Post by Pamela
You have less idea about all this than Dominic Cummings.
Who says?
You have to admit that Pammy is trying to make a decent case for Corbyn
becoming PM without having an election, and still calling it democracy.

If this was any other country, and the minority opposition were trying to
overthrow the majority government, it would be considered a coup and there
would be demands for a UN peacekeeping force to be sent in.
tim...
2019-09-08 11:42:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in
gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a
deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has backed
"no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the extension by
the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required wording of the
letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it
other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail son
many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if the PM
flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on account
of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If other
parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's sabotage,
nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then? How much support will he or she be able
to muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern? Do please give your
calculations and time scale.
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the government's
call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks the good of the
country in the long term is better served by not calling for an election
then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government. Everyone
knows that. Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate will
rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
Post by Pamela
(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris does
not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal, which is the
scenario. They will have achieved everything they stand for. And
Farage has said in such circumstances that he would give Boris his full
support. So, Boris will get the vast majority of the Brexit Party's
votes while the remain parties remain irreconcilably split.
Post by Pamela
You have less idea about all this than Dominic Cummings.
Who says?
You have to admit that Pammy is trying to make a decent case for Corbyn
becoming PM without having an election, and still calling it democracy.
If this was any other country, and the minority opposition were trying to
overthrow the majority government, it would be considered a coup and there
would be demands for a UN peacekeeping force to be sent in.
happens in Italy every other week

tim
Roger
2019-09-08 12:54:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely
not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him
in
gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has
said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a
deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has backed
"no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the extension by
the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required wording of the
letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it
other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail son
many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if the PM
flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on account
of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If other
parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's sabotage,
nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then? How much support will he or she be able
to muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern? Do please give your
calculations and time scale.
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the government's
call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks the good of the
country in the long term is better served by not calling for an election
then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government. Everyone
knows that. Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate will
rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
Post by Pamela
(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris does
not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal, which is the
scenario. They will have achieved everything they stand for. And
Farage has said in such circumstances that he would give Boris his full
support. So, Boris will get the vast majority of the Brexit Party's
votes while the remain parties remain irreconcilably split.
Post by Pamela
You have less idea about all this than Dominic Cummings.
Who says?
You have to admit that Pammy is trying to make a decent case for Corbyn
becoming PM without having an election, and still calling it democracy.
If this was any other country, and the minority opposition were trying to
overthrow the majority government, it would be considered a coup and there
would be demands for a UN peacekeeping force to be sent in.
happens in Italy every other week
tim
What happens in Italy is that if the government does not have a majority in parliament then the President is obliged to find a new majority, either amongst sitting MPs or by calling an election or, as happens often, by nominating a technician.

However, in all cases the government must have a majority in the parliament.

There seems to be a fundamental flaw in UK law whereby a 2/3 majority is required to call an election.
Pamela
2019-09-08 11:49:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will
definitely not ask Brussels for a further extension even
though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has
said it will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The
letter will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than
Boris Johnson. The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The
Queen's Secretary? The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that
unless a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or
Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister"
specifically must seek the extension by the end of the 19th
October. Looking at the required wording of the letter they've
clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it other than
the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on
the 19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in
place to send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
He stands in that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as
the only candidate, retains his position with the enviable support
he received when he was appointed the first time, and again becomes
Prime Minister as the leader of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would
not then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the
Brexit Party votes, and cruises to victory over a divided
opposition which then, rather uncomfortably, has to reposition
itself as re-join rather than remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail
son many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if
the PM flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on
account of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If
other parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's
sabotage, nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then? How much support will he or she be able
to muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern? Do please give your
calculations and time scale.
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the
government's call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks
the good of the country in the long term is better served by not
calling for an election then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government. Everyone
knows that. Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate will
rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
Post by Pamela
(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris
does not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal, which is the
scenario. They will have achieved everything they stand for. And
Farage has said in such circumstances that he would give Boris his full
support. So, Boris will get the vast majority of the Brexit Party's
votes while the remain parties remain irreconcilably split.
Post by Pamela
You have less idea about all this than Dominic Cummings.
Who says?
You have to admit that Pammy is trying to make a decent case for Corbyn
becoming PM without having an election, and still calling it democracy.
Corbyn can only become PM if a majority of MPs have confidence in him.
That's democracy. Boris can't command support from the number of MPs
Corbyn can.
Post by Keema's Nan
If this was any other country, and the minority opposition were trying
to overthrow the majority government, it would be considered a coup and
there would be demands for a UN peacekeeping force to be sent in.
The government is in a minority. Boris's actions to silence Parliament
are like those of a dictator.
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 13:17:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Corbyn can only become PM if a majority of MPs have confidence in him.
That's democracy. Boris can't command support from the number of MPs
Corbyn can.
Corbyn at the moment can only command support from his own MPs That's a
rather lower number than Boris can command.

He would need formal agreements with a multitude of different parties
and independents to command a majority in the Commons. But he's tried
that recently and failed rather dismally. And it's wishful thinking
that any even exiled Tories will be able to bring themselves to support
or even precipitate a Corbyn premiership. So, do the sums for us please
and tell us where all his allegiance is going to come from.
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
If this was any other country, and the minority opposition were trying
to overthrow the majority government, it would be considered a coup and
there would be demands for a UN peacekeeping force to be sent in.
The government is in a minority. Boris's actions to silence Parliament
are like those of a dictator.
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine democracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."

<c> J Corbyn 2nd September 2019.
Pamela
2019-09-08 15:59:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Corbyn can only become PM if a majority of MPs have confidence in him.
That's democracy. Boris can't command support from the number of MPs
Corbyn can.
Corbyn at the moment can only command support from his own MPs
What proof do you have of that assertion? He is beginning to work with
other parties.
Post by Norman Wells
That's a
rather lower number than Boris can command.
He would need formal agreements with a multitude of different parties
and independents to command a majority in the Commons. But he's tried
that recently and failed rather dismally. And it's wishful thinking
that any even exiled Tories will be able to bring themselves to support
or even precipitate a Corbyn premiership. So, do the sums for us please
and tell us where all his allegiance is going to come from.
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
If this was any other country, and the minority opposition were trying
to overthrow the majority government, it would be considered a coup and
there would be demands for a UN peacekeeping force to be sent in.
The government is in a minority. Boris's actions to silence Parliament
are like those of a dictator.
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine democracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."
<c> J Corbyn 2nd September 2019.
Corbyn's clear intention is to call an election if possible, within the
constraints of the FTPA.

His speech mentions no time frame and, of course, it's unwise to choose a
time that is not advantageous.

MPs opposed to Boris are in no rush because, after Boris destroyed his own
majority, he's a puppet dancing to their tune.
abelard
2019-09-08 16:05:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Corbyn's clear intention is to call an election if possible, within the
constraints of the FTPA.
no...his objective is to avoid an election
--
www.abelard.org
Fredxx
2019-09-08 16:26:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 08/09/2019 16:59, Pamela wrote:

<snip>
Post by Pamela
Corbyn's clear intention is to call an election if possible, within the
constraints of the FTPA.
An election and control of Parliament was within he grasp, he simply
pissed the opportunity away!

You posts have deteriorated and have now become full of lies.
Pamela
2019-09-08 16:30:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fredxx
<snip>
Post by Pamela
Corbyn's clear intention is to call an election if possible, within the
constraints of the FTPA.
An election and control of Parliament was within he grasp, he simply
pissed the opportunity away!
You posts have deteriorated and have now become full of well made
observations.
Corbyn's is wise to choose a time that is most advantageous.

Corbyn and others opposed to Boris are in no rush because Boris is a lame
duck who now dances to their tune. :)
Fredxx
2019-09-08 17:56:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Fredxx
<snip>
Post by Pamela
Corbyn's clear intention is to call an election if possible, within the
constraints of the FTPA.
An election and control of Parliament was within he grasp, he simply
pissed the opportunity away!
You posts have deteriorated and have now become full of well made
observations.
Corbyn's is wise to choose a time that is most advantageous.
Which is never. Best wait at least to 2022.
Post by Pamela
Corbyn and others opposed to Boris are in no rush because Boris is a lame
duck who now dances to their tune. :)
You won't be calling him lame on the 18th October.
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 18:50:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Corbyn can only become PM if a majority of MPs have confidence in him.
That's democracy. Boris can't command support from the number of MPs
Corbyn can.
Corbyn at the moment can only command support from his own MPs
What proof do you have of that assertion? He is beginning to work with
other parties.
Who else has signed up? Do tell.
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
The government is in a minority. Boris's actions to silence Parliament
are like those of a dictator.
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine democracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."
<c> J Corbyn 2nd September 2019.
Corbyn's clear intention is to call an election if possible, within the
constraints of the FTPA.
It's not his to call.

Do you think he's Prime Minister or something?

If he wants one, his route is clear. He needs to table a motion of no
confidence in the government. But he's too scared.
Post by Pamela
His speech mentions no time frame and, of course, it's unwise to choose a
time that is not advantageous.
The very first sentence says 'when'. And it applies right now.
Post by Pamela
MPs opposed to Boris are in no rush because, after Boris destroyed his own
majority, he's a puppet dancing to their tune.
Hardly. They're just stopping him doing things in a very negative and
unproductive way, very much contrary to the national interest.
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 19:01:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Corbyn can only become PM if a majority of MPs have confidence in him.
That's democracy. Boris can't command support from the number of MPs
Corbyn can.
Corbyn at the moment can only command support from his own MPs
What proof do you have of that assertion? He is beginning to work with
other parties.
Who else has signed up? Do tell.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
The government is in a minority. Boris's actions to silence Parliament
are like those of a dictator.
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine democracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."
<c> J Corbyn 2nd September 2019.
Corbyn's clear intention is to call an election if possible, within the
constraints of the FTPA.
It's not his to call.
Do you think he's Prime Minister or something?
Yes, Corbyn does.

That is is monumental mistake.

Corbyn and his sheeple have walked right into the Boris trap.

No more Labour for at leat 15 years.......
Pamela
2019-09-08 19:12:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Corbyn can only become PM if a majority of MPs have confidence in
him. That's democracy. Boris can't command support from the number
of MPs Corbyn can.
Corbyn at the moment can only command support from his own MPs
What proof do you have of that assertion? He is beginning to work with
other parties.
Who else has signed up? Do tell.
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
The government is in a minority. Boris's actions to silence
Parliament are like those of a dictator.
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is
not to undermine democracy. The solution is to let the people decide
and call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is
the democratic way forward."
<c> J Corbyn 2nd September 2019.
Corbyn's clear intention is to call an election if possible, within the
constraints of the FTPA.
It's not his to call. Do you think he's Prime Minister or something?
If he wants one, his route is clear. He needs to table a motion of no
confidence in the government. But he's too scared.
That's what I meant when I wrote "within the constraints of the FTPA".
You need to keep up with the provisions of the FTPA because the PM had his
prerogative to call an electon removed.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
His speech mentions no time frame and, of course, it's unwise to choose
a time that is not advantageous.
The very first sentence says 'when'. And it applies right now.
Many observers think it will be November. Some say December. Let's wait
patiently and see how Boris fares.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
MPs opposed to Boris are in no rush because, after Boris destroyed his
own majority, he's a puppet dancing to their tune.
Hardly. They're just stopping him doing things in a very negative and
unproductive way, very much contrary to the national interest.
There is no public majority for No Deal and the national interest is best
served by preventing it. That's the priority.

tim...
2019-09-08 11:41:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a
deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has backed
"no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the extension by
the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required wording of the
letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it
other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail son
many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if the PM
flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on account
of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If other
parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's sabotage,
nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then? How much support will he or she be able to
muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern? Do please give your
calculations and time scale.
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the government's
call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks the good of the
country in the long term is better served by not calling for an election
then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government. Everyone
knows that. Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate will
rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
Post by Pamela
(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris does
not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal,
But you are almost the only person here who envisages this being the outcome
of Boris' current manoeuvring

Even many of those who want us to leave, now don't think he's going to
achieve it by Oct 31st on the current heading

tim
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 13:21:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a
deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has backed
"no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the
extension by
the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required wording of the
letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else from signing it
other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway.  It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter.  There then
follows
a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early November,
leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the extension
letter until after we've left when it will be too late.  He stands in
that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the only candidate,
retains his position with the enviable support he received when he was
appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime Minister as the leader
of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail son
many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if the PM
flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on account
of heading the largest party.  It doesn't work like that.  If other
parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's sabotage,
nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then?  How much support will he or she be able
to muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern?  Do please give
your calculations and time scale.
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the
government's
call for an election under the FTPA.  If Corbyn thinks the good of the
country in the long term is better served by not calling for an election
then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government.  Everyone
knows that.  Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate
will rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
Post by Pamela
(4)  The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it.  Boris does
not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal,
But you are almost the only person here who envisages this being the
outcome of Boris' current manoeuvring
Even if I was totally alone, that still outnumbers by one those who can
tear it down.
Post by tim...
Even many of those who want us to leave, now don't think he's going to
achieve it by Oct 31st on the current heading
That's just a statement of faith. If there's no reasoning to back it
up, it's not worth the electrons it's written in.
Pamela
2019-09-08 12:04:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a
deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has
backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the
extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required
wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else
from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He
stands in that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the
only candidate, retains his position with the enviable support he
received when he was appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime
Minister as the leader of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail
son many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if the
PM flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Which law? I'm sure there are pefectly good arrangemnts for a stand-in
when a PM falls sick or can't do his duties for some reason and the new
Act doesnt say Boris can't be substituted.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on
account of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If
other parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's
sabotage, nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then? How much support will he or she be able
to muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern? Do please give your
calculations and time scale.
The details wil be worked out over the next few weeks. The impetus to get
this right is growing as it become clearer a replacement PM can be
appointed without an election. The opposiiton parties have been working
together to deny Boris an early election and this will be on their agenda.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the
government's call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks the
good of the country in the long term is better served by not calling
for an election then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government. Everyone
knows that. Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate will
rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
A general election is not required for a functioning government. However
a new PM who appoints a new government will gets things back to normal.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris
does not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal, which is the
scenario. They will have achieved everything they stand for. And
Farage has said in such circumstances that he would give Boris his full
support. So, Boris will get the vast majority of the Brexit Party's
votes while the remain parties remain irreconcilably split.
Sorry to break this to you but your premise that there will be a No Deal
exit is misplaced. No Deal goes against "smooth and orderly departure" in
the Tory manifesto, there's insufficient support for No Deal in
Parliament, there's litle more than 20% support for it in the country and
the new Act prevents it. Get over it.
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 13:44:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson.
The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary?
The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a
deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has
backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the
extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required
wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else
from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to
send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late. He
stands in that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as the
only candidate, retains his position with the enviable support he
received when he was appointed the first time, and again becomes Prime
Minister as the leader of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would not
then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit Party
votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which then,
rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join rather than
remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail
son many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if the
PM flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Which law? I'm sure there are pefectly good arrangemnts for a stand-in
when a PM falls sick or can't do his duties for some reason and the new
Act doesnt say Boris can't be substituted.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on
account of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If
other parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's
sabotage, nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then? How much support will he or she be able
to muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern? Do please give your
calculations and time scale.
The details wil be worked out over the next few weeks.
Isn't absolute faith wonderful? It must be so comforting for you.
Post by Pamela
The impetus to get
this right is growing as it become clearer a replacement PM can be
appointed without an election. The opposiiton parties have been working
together to deny Boris an early election and this will be on their agenda.
Oh, they know what they don't want all right but, just like Parliament
itself, they have no idea of what they do want or how to go about it.
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the
government's call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks the
good of the country in the long term is better served by not calling
for an election then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government. Everyone
knows that. Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate will
rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
A general election is not required for a functioning government.
Of course it is. Even that nice Mr Coprbyn thinks it is:

"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine dedmocracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."
Post by Pamela
However
a new PM who appoints a new government will gets things back to normal.
But any new PM needs to be able to command a majority in the Commons.
That's mathematically impossible in the current Parliament as it's
constituted, so we need a general election to churn it about a bit.
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris
does not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal, which is the
scenario. They will have achieved everything they stand for. And
Farage has said in such circumstances that he would give Boris his full
support. So, Boris will get the vast majority of the Brexit Party's
votes while the remain parties remain irreconcilably split.
Sorry to break this to you but your premise that there will be a No Deal
exit is misplaced. No Deal goes against "smooth and orderly departure" in
the Tory manifesto,
Not necessarily. Anyway, can you tell us please on which page of the
manifesto that pledge is made? I don't seem able to find it.
Post by Pamela
there's insufficient support for No Deal in Parliament,
There's insufficient support for *anything* in Parliament. That's what
all the indicative votes in March established.
Post by Pamela
there's litle more than 20% support for it in the country
Cite?
Post by Pamela
and the new Act prevents it.
No it doesn't. It can't because it's not completely in our hands.
Post by Pamela
Get over it.
Get over what?
Pamela
2019-09-08 16:15:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely
not ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put
him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said
it will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The
letter will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris
Johnson. The Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's
Secretary? The Groom of the Stool?
The Bill (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-
2019/0202/lbill_2017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless
a deal has been agreed and backed by Parliament or Parliament has
backed "no deal", the "Prime Minister" specifically must seek the
extension by the end of the 19th October. Looking at the required
wording of the letter they've clearly tried to prevent someone else
from signing it other than the PM.
No-one else is empowered to sign it anyway. It has to come from the
departing state, which means no-one else but the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on
the 19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place
to send the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
He resigns on 18 October without signing the letter. There then
follows a Conservative Party leadership election taking until early
November, leaving the country without a Prime Minister to sign the
extension letter until after we've left when it will be too late.
He stands in that leadership election, possibly by arrangement as
the only candidate, retains his position with the enviable support
he received when he was appointed the first time, and again becomes
Prime Minister as the leader of the largest party in the Commons.
Once back in post, he calls a general election which Labour would
not then have any Brexit excuse to refuse, hoovers up all the Brexit
Party votes, and cruises to victory over a divided opposition which
then, rather uncomfortably, has to reposition itself as re-join
rather than remain parties.
You must have had a bad day to propose that addled nonsense. It fail
son many counts.
(1) It has been established that a deputy can sign the agreement if
the PM flees from his responsibility by refusing or resigning.
Not when the law is absolutely specific, as it is.
Which law? I'm sure there are pefectly good arrangemnts for a stand-in
when a PM falls sick or can't do his duties for some reason and the new
Act doesnt say Boris can't be substituted.
You don't answer my question. So you can't specify a law which mandates
Boris in person must delay Article 50. Your argument falls at the first
hurdle.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
(2) Boris's return in the position of PM is not assured simply on
account of heading the largest party. It doesn't work like that. If
other parties, who are now working ever closer to prevent Boris's
sabotage, nominate an alternative then that person becomes PM.
Who is that going to be then? How much support will he or she be able
to muster, and what formal agreements will be put in place to ensure a
majority in the Commons and the ability to govern? Do please give
your calculations and time scale.
The details wil be worked out over the next few weeks.
Isn't absolute faith wonderful? It must be so comforting for you.
I not only feel comforted by the present situation but entertained. Karma
can be such a bitch. I need more popcorn.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
The impetus to get this right is growing as it become clearer a
replacement PM can be appointed without an election. The opposiiton
parties have been working together to deny Boris an early election and
this will be on their agenda.
Oh, they know what they don't want all right but, just like Parliament
itself, they have no idea of what they do want or how to go about it.
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
(3) Corbyn doesn't need a "Brexit excuse" not to support the
government's call for an election under the FTPA. If Corbyn thinks
the good of the country in the long term is better served by not
calling for an election then he will do just that.
A general election is required for a functioning government. Everyone
knows that. Only Corbyn is standing in its way, and the electorate
will rapidly get fed up with his obstruction and prevarication.
A general election is not required for a functioning government.
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine dedmocracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."
An election will be the way forward but there's no rush. Boris has been
contained and wise heads now need time to think how to remove the
dictator.

A second referendum should be able to confirm if the will of the people is
in favour of whatever deal is agreed. Now that Boris has flipped some of
his MPs to oppose him there's probably a majority in Parliament for such a
thing.

Afterwards we could elect a party to implement it.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
However
a new PM who appoints a new government will gets things back to normal.
But any new PM needs to be able to command a majority in the Commons.
That's mathematically impossible in the current Parliament as it's
constituted, so we need a general election to churn it about a bit.
Italy has coalition governments all the time and I am sure we could manage
the same. Else a supply and demand arangement might work. Give it time
for theparties to decide.
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
(4) The Brexit party splits the Tory vote, not augments it. Boris
does not gain any votes while they are fielding candidates.
BUt they won't once we've left the EU with no deal, which is the
scenario. They will have achieved everything they stand for. And
Farage has said in such circumstances that he would give Boris his
full support. So, Boris will get the vast majority of the Brexit
Party's votes while the remain parties remain irreconcilably split.
Sorry to break this to you but your premise that there will be a No
Deal exit is misplaced. No Deal goes against "smooth and orderly
departure" in the Tory manifesto,
Not necessarily. Anyway, can you tell us please on which page of the
manifesto that pledge is made? I don't seem able to find it.
Are you incomptent? Try again. The quoatation is 100% accurate. Please
let me know when you have found it so we can move on.
Pamela
2019-09-08 09:02:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The
Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The
Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2
017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a deal has been agreed
and backed by Parliament or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime
Minister" specifically must seek the extension by the end of the 19th
October. Looking at the required wording of the letter they've clearly
tried to prevent someone else from signing it other than the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
Regards,
James
I'm sure the EU is capable of invoking its usual ruse of "stopping the
clock".
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 10:04:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by James Hammerton
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
I'm sure the EU is capable of invoking its usual ruse of "stopping the
clock".
Sorry, no it isn't. It's an international Treaty provision set in
tablets of stone, you see. It's not amendable just on the whim of an EU
official. If it is to be changed, that has to be by re-negotiation with
all the contracting nations. And that's not going to happen.

If we reach the end of October with no deal in place, Article 50 says
"The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question". That
means we've left. Full stop.
tim...
2019-09-08 11:43:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by James Hammerton
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The
Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The
Groom of the Stool?
The Bill
(https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/lbill/2017-2019/0202/lbill_2
017-20190202_en_2.htm#l1g1) specifies that unless a deal has been agreed
and backed by Parliament or Parliament has backed "no deal", the "Prime
Minister" specifically must seek the extension by the end of the 19th
October. Looking at the required wording of the letter they've clearly
tried to prevent someone else from signing it other than the PM.
But I also wonder what happens if Boris resigns as PM at 23:59 on the
19th October? Has he broken the law if a new PM isn't in place to send
the letter by 23:59 and 59 seconds?
Regards,
James
I'm sure the EU is capable of invoking its usual ruse of "stopping the
clock".
not without unanimous agreement it isn't
Norman Wells
2019-09-07 22:12:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter will
be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The
Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The
Groom of the Stool?
And then Boris can give a pompous crowd-pleasing speech about how it
pained him greatly to see the letter and he couldn't bring himself to
sign it. Applause, cheers, and the ladies will throw their knickers at him.
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Pamela
2019-09-08 08:57:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter
will be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The
Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The
Groom of the Stool?
And then Boris can give a pompous crowd-pleasing speech about how it
pained him greatly to see the letter and he couldn't bring himself to
sign it. Applause, cheers, and the ladies will throw their knickers at him.
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the PM's
office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM is
incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.

Here's a link to help you.

services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 09:57:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the PM's
office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM is
incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter. It doesn't permit of
alternatives.
Roger
2019-09-08 10:46:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the PM's
office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM is
incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter. It doesn't permit of
alternatives.
I also noticed this bit:

"But subsection (2) does not apply if the House of Commons has decided not to
15
pass a motion moved by a Minister of the Crown within a period of two
calendar days beginning with the end of the day on which the European
Council’s decision is made or before the end of 30 October 2019, whichever is
sooner, in the following form—"

So if the EU proposes an extension the UK requires a Minister to propose a motion for parliament to accept it?

Who will propose the motion, I wonder.
The Todal
2019-09-08 11:29:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Nope.  The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the PM's
office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM is
incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter.  It doesn't permit of
alternatives.
So, logically, if Boris really wants to stand by his principles he
should do the right thing. Blow his brains out with a service revolver.
Hang himself. Jump off Westminster Bridge. Die in a ditch.
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 12:45:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the PM's
office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM is
incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter. It doesn't permit of
alternatives.
So, logically, if Boris really wants to stand by his principles he
should do the right thing. Blow his brains out with a service revolver.
Hang himself. Jump off Westminster Bridge. Die in a ditch.
Wahaaay.

Such intelligent insight. Did that raise a chuckle in your spit and sawdust
beer house last night?

Or have you nicked it from Pravda?
Fredxx
2019-09-08 13:03:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
Nope.  The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the PM's
office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM is
incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter.  It doesn't permit
of alternatives.
So, logically, if Boris really wants to stand by his principles he
should do the right thing. Blow his brains out with a service revolver.
Hang himself. Jump off Westminster Bridge. Die in a ditch.
Wouldn't it be so much easier for him to resign on the 18th October?

Remind us, how is a PM chosen? How long would that take?

The no-deal opposition had their chance and blew it in not agreeing with
the no confidence vote. They could have put in a caretaker government
and caretaker PM until the 30th October and then called a general election.
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 13:46:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Pamela
Nope.  The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the PM's
office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM is
incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter.  It doesn't permit
of alternatives.
So, logically, if Boris really wants to stand by his principles he
should do the right thing. Blow his brains out with a service revolver.
Hang himself. Jump off Westminster Bridge. Die in a ditch.
I don't see how that follows. I've already given you an alternative
scenario.
Pamela
2019-09-08 12:07:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the PM's
office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM is
incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter. It doesn't permit of
alternatives.
It doesn't prohibit alternatives.

It says the letter must be send in Boris's name which means with his
authority.

Unless he wants a spell in chokey. It's not easy to run for election from
there. :)
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 13:52:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the PM's
office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM is
incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter. It doesn't permit of
alternatives.
It doesn't prohibit alternatives.
It says the letter must be send in Boris's name which means with his
authority.
No it doesn't.

You cited the Bill; I think it behoves you to actually read it.

*Only* the Prime Minister is mandated to sign it and send it. Only the
Prime Minister can sign it and send it.
Pamela
2019-09-08 16:26:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the
PM's office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM
is incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter. It doesn't permit
of alternatives.
It doesn't prohibit alternatives.
It says the letter must be send in Boris's name which means with his
authority.
No it doesn't.
You cited the Bill; I think it behoves you to actually read it.
*Only* the Prime Minister is mandated to sign it and send it. Only the
Prime Minister can sign it and send it.
Boris goes to jail if he refuses and I hope Boris chooses that course. He's
so vain that he might expect others to see him as a martyr -- while he
surreptitiously pursues his personal agenda.

What a nasty piece of work Boris has turned out to be. Nice to see him get
his wings clipped. He shouldn't have signalled his deviant behaviour so
quickly.
Fredxx
2019-09-08 17:45:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the
PM's office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM
is incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter. It doesn't permit
of alternatives.
It doesn't prohibit alternatives.
It says the letter must be send in Boris's name which means with his
authority.
No it doesn't.
You cited the Bill; I think it behoves you to actually read it.
*Only* the Prime Minister is mandated to sign it and send it. Only the
Prime Minister can sign it and send it.
Boris goes to jail if he refuses and I hope Boris chooses that course. He's
so vain that he might expect others to see him as a martyr -- while he
surreptitiously pursues his personal agenda.
And that of the majority. You keep forgetting the once in a generation
referendum was leave. It's about time a PM stood up against the Remoaner
MPs trying to thwart the will of the people.
Post by Pamela
What a nasty piece of work Boris has turned out to be. Nice to see him get
his wings clipped. He shouldn't have signalled his deviant behaviour so
quickly.
His resignation as PM on the 18th October might then be a surprise for
you as well as the other collaborators.
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 18:53:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Nope. The Act requires that the Prime Minister himself sends it.
Please cite where the Act says a deputy or someone authorised by the
PM's office can not be substituted, as is usually the case, if the PM
is incapacitated or unwilling to send the letter.
Here's a link to help you.
services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawalno6.html
And that says *exactly* who must send the letter. It doesn't permit
of alternatives.
It doesn't prohibit alternatives.
It says the letter must be send in Boris's name which means with his
authority.
No it doesn't.
You cited the Bill; I think it behoves you to actually read it.
*Only* the Prime Minister is mandated to sign it and send it. Only the
Prime Minister can sign it and send it.
Boris goes to jail if he refuses and I hope Boris chooses that course.
Exactly.

Boris goes to jail for trying to implement the majority referendum decision.

How does that look to democracy historians?

Remember, remainers will not be around to spout poisonous lies.
tim...
2019-09-08 08:03:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter will
be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The Foreign
Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The Groom of the
Stool?
And then Boris can give a pompous crowd-pleasing speech about how it
pained him greatly to see the letter and he couldn't bring himself to sign
it.
Let's hope that's his plan

sadly I think it's not.

It pains me to say this, but I think that Boris' continual hole digging is
taking us nearer to No Brexit than No deal

IMHO he should have accepted that the other side outplayed him, accepted his
fate and rebranded his message around "Well we'll leave in January then",
hopefully with a majority to achieve it (and given all the rebels the Whip
back)

tim
GB
2019-09-08 08:36:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
IMHO he should have accepted that the other side outplayed him, accepted
his fate and rebranded his message around "Well we'll leave in January
then", hopefully with a majority to achieve it (and given all the rebels
the Whip back)
tim
Boris's plan was that he'd threaten the EU with a no-deal Brexit, and
the EU would cave in. Only they didn't. And Boris did not have a plan B.
He's out of his depth.
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 09:14:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by tim...
IMHO he should have accepted that the other side outplayed him, accepted
his fate and rebranded his message around "Well we'll leave in January
then", hopefully with a majority to achieve it (and given all the rebels
the Whip back)
tim
Boris's plan was that he'd threaten the EU with a no-deal Brexit, and
the EU would cave in. Only they didn't.
Because he never got a chance to try it out at the 11th hour.

All the self serving remain snowflakes have pulled the rug out from under
him, and made it the law that he can’t threaten the EU with no deal.

Well thanks remainers. Not only have you now prevented a majority referendum
verdict from being enacted, but you have completely fucked up the UKs
negotiating position.

I hope you are all very happy - but of course you are, because minority
politics has won.
abelard
2019-09-08 10:41:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 08 Sep 2019 10:14:24 +0100, Keema's Nan
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by GB
Post by tim...
IMHO he should have accepted that the other side outplayed him, accepted
his fate and rebranded his message around "Well we'll leave in January
then", hopefully with a majority to achieve it (and given all the rebels
the Whip back)
tim
Boris's plan was that he'd threaten the EU with a no-deal Brexit, and
the EU would cave in. Only they didn't.
Because he never got a chance to try it out at the 11th hour.
All the self serving remain snowflakes have pulled the rug out from under
him, and made it the law that he can’t threaten the EU with no deal.
Well thanks remainers. Not only have you now prevented a majority referendum
verdict from being enacted, but you have completely fucked up the UKs
negotiating position.
that is their prime intent

all the rest is posturing for the fools
Post by Keema's Nan
I hope you are all very happy - but of course you are, because minority
politics has won.
--
www.abelard.org
Roger
2019-09-08 10:39:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
Post by tim...
IMHO he should have accepted that the other side outplayed him, accepted
his fate and rebranded his message around "Well we'll leave in January
then", hopefully with a majority to achieve it (and given all the rebels
the Whip back)
tim
Boris's plan was that he'd threaten the EU with a no-deal Brexit, and
the EU would cave in. Only they didn't. And Boris did not have a plan B.
He's out of his depth.
I think the EU would have receded on the backstop had they been faced with a no-deal.

Had it worked it would have been a great success and his popularity would have increased further than it already has.

But we will never find out whether it would have worked; faced with a more popular Boris both opposition and aspirational Boris opponents teamed up to oppose him for purely political reasons.


Spare me this idealism that the rebels and opposition did it for the country; Politicians lie back and think of the orgasm.
tim...
2019-09-08 11:29:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
IMHO he should have accepted that the other side outplayed him, accepted
his fate and rebranded his message around "Well we'll leave in January
then", hopefully with a majority to achieve it (and given all the rebels
the Whip back)
tim
Boris's plan was that he'd threaten the EU with a no-deal Brexit, and the
EU would cave in. Only they didn't.
No that no true at all

Parliament stopped him from playing that card

just like they did the previous time

I feel sure that the EU will cave in if we are actually allowed to play that
card, but we are being thwarted by our own side from doing so
And Boris did not have a plan B.
he did

he expected Corbyn to let him have a GE

Agreed he had no Plan C
He's out of his depth.
He's played it wrongly, I agree
The Todal
2019-09-08 11:37:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by GB
Post by tim...
IMHO he should have accepted that the other side outplayed him,
accepted his fate and rebranded his message around "Well we'll leave
in January then", hopefully with a majority to achieve it (and given
all the rebels the Whip back)
tim
Boris's plan was that he'd threaten the EU with a no-deal Brexit, and
the EU would cave in. Only they didn't.
No that no true at all
Parliament stopped him from playing that card
It hasn't stopped him from playing that card. Instead, it's Deal or Yet
Another Three Month Delay which could result in a no-deal.

And Amber Rudd has revealed what we already knew. He hasn't been trying
to get a deal at all. All he has said is that he wants the backstop
removed from the existing deal, which the Brexiters regard as a betrayal
of Brexit. But he knows the backstop won't be removed. So he's simply
preparing for a no-deal.
Post by tim...
just like they did the previous time
I feel sure that the EU will cave in if we are actually allowed to play
that card, but we are being thwarted by our own side from doing so
Unfortunately your feelings don't count. The backstop is legally
essential and will not, under any circumstances, be removed.
Post by tim...
Post by GB
And Boris did not have a plan B.
he did
he expected Corbyn to let him have a GE
Agreed he had no Plan C
Post by GB
He's out of his depth.
He's played it wrongly, I agree
How would a general election help? Maybe Boris hopes to flood the House
with MPs who support a no-deal. That won't ever happen.

A People's Vote or further referendum would be a cop-out, to shift
responsibility back to the electorate. The outcome would be
unpredictable. But then Parliament could go ahead and implement that
decision.
tim...
2019-09-08 12:36:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by tim...
Post by GB
Post by tim...
IMHO he should have accepted that the other side outplayed him,
accepted his fate and rebranded his message around "Well we'll leave in
January then", hopefully with a majority to achieve it (and given all
the rebels the Whip back)
tim
Boris's plan was that he'd threaten the EU with a no-deal Brexit, and
the EU would cave in. Only they didn't.
No that no true at all
Parliament stopped him from playing that card
It hasn't stopped him from playing that card.
of course it has
Post by The Todal
Instead, it's Deal or Yet Another Three Month Delay
yep

the "take the EU to one second to midnight threatening No deal" option has
been removed

I really don't see how you can argue otherwise
Post by The Todal
which could result in a no-deal.
And Amber Rudd has revealed what we already knew. He hasn't been trying to
get a deal at all. All he has said is that he wants the backstop removed
from the existing deal, which the Brexiters regard as a betrayal of
Brexit. But he knows the backstop won't be removed. So he's simply
preparing for a no-deal.
That's a separate argument
Post by The Todal
Post by tim...
just like they did the previous time
I feel sure that the EU will cave in if we are actually allowed to play
that card, but we are being thwarted by our own side from doing so
Unfortunately your feelings don't count. The backstop is legally essential
No it's not

it's essential because they say it essential

it serves no practical purpose which cannot be resolved in other ways

it's purely a political "must have" as the Irish see it as a step to
reunification
Post by The Todal
and will not, under any circumstances, be removed.
except if we do fall out with no deal

it will be removed.
Post by The Todal
Post by tim...
Post by GB
And Boris did not have a plan B.
he did
he expected Corbyn to let him have a GE
Agreed he had no Plan C
Post by GB
He's out of his depth.
He's played it wrongly, I agree
How would a general election help?
depending upon the timing it gets Boris a majority to push through his plan
Post by The Todal
Maybe Boris hopes to flood the House with MPs who support a no-deal. That
won't ever happen.
we'll just have to wait and see

tim
Roger
2019-09-08 12:56:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
And Amber Rudd has revealed what we already knew. He hasn't been trying to
get a deal at all.
That is not what Amber Rudd said.
GB
2019-09-08 13:20:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
the "take the EU to one second to midnight threatening No deal" option
has been removed
I really don't see how you can argue otherwise
I agree with you. However, the Conservatives did not have a mandate from
the electorate to commit economic suicide.

The threat was never valid unless Boris was prepared to carry it out. I
believe he would have done so, because it would have been good for
Boris, and I am pleased that there are sufficient sensible MPs
(including his brother) who are prepared to put the country's good ahead
of Boris's.
Post by tim...
Post by The Todal
Maybe Boris hopes to flood the House with MPs who support a no-deal.
That won't ever happen.
we'll just have to wait and see
I live in Finchley (formerly Maggie's constituency). Out of £73k voters,
52k voted at the last election, giving a modest Tory majority of 1600.

Since then, the MP has voted to back Brexit consistently, including
backing Boris with his (ridiculous) brinksmanship, and without saying a
thing against it. This is in an area which is *really* staunchly Remain.
I wouldn't rate his re-election chances in an election at the moment.

There's talk of a tactical voting alliance in a forthcoming election. If
the LibDems (who came a distant third) side with Labour, that's one seat
the Conservatives have definitely lost.

Even if the Conservatives grab most of the UKIP votes, that was under
500 at the last election.

I have no idea how it would work out in the rest of the country, though?
Post by tim...
tim
abelard
2019-09-08 16:10:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GB
I have no idea how it would work out in the rest of the country, though?
brexit was won on those who don't normally vote

they will come out again *if* they think they can effect the situation

party polls hide that fact

speculations based on party polls are therefore fantasy polls
--
www.abelard.org
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 12:52:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
How would a general election help? Maybe Boris hopes to flood the House
with MPs who support a no-deal. That won't ever happen.
Well, that nice Mr Corbyn, whom I thought you supported, said this only
6 days ago:

"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine dedmocracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."

Do you disagree with that?
The Todal
2019-09-08 15:38:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
How would a general election help? Maybe Boris hopes to flood the
House with MPs who support a no-deal. That won't ever happen.
Well, that nice Mr Corbyn, whom I thought you supported, said this only
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine dedmocracy.  The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election.  It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future.  An election is the
democratic way forward."
Do you disagree with that?
It makes perfect sense when you're talking about a manifesto full of
pledges and plans. But it does not in any way solve Brexit. A hung
Parliament with Corbyn as PM, or even a Parliament with a narrow Labour
majority, would be in exactly the same dilemma as before, surely.

Even if the Labour manifesto pledged to revoke Brexit and the Tory
manifesto pledged to a no-deal Brexit, a general election would not be
giving the electorate a clear choice between those options. Revocation
plus nationalisation of the railways? No deal Brexit coupled with
selling off parts of the NHS?

Either way I don't believe there would be more than a handful of new MPs
who were in favour of a no-deal Brexit. And they would be perfectly
entitled to change their minds and oppose a no-deal Brexit after the
intelligent grownups had explained the facts of life to them. Because
no-deal is not an intelligent choice.
Norman Wells
2019-09-08 18:23:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
How would a general election help? Maybe Boris hopes to flood the
House with MPs who support a no-deal. That won't ever happen.
Well, that nice Mr Corbyn, whom I thought you supported, said this
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is
not to undermine dedmocracy.  The solution is to let the people decide
and call a general election.  It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future.  An election is
the democratic way forward."
Do you disagree with that?
It makes perfect sense when you're talking about a manifesto full of
pledges and plans.
So, we need a genral election. I'm glad you agree.
Post by The Todal
But it does not in any way solve Brexit. A hung
Parliament with Corbyn as PM, or even a Parliament with a narrow Labour
majority, would be in exactly the same dilemma as before, surely.
The idea of a general election, though, would be to return a
Conservative government with a healthy overall majority and Parliament
stuffed full of MPs carefully vetted to be in support of no deal.

That would sort it.

It would help of course too if, by the time of the election, we had
already left the EU by default. Then we could settle for a little bit
less of an overall majority because the most contentious issue would
have been sorted, and any plaintive bleating from the opposition benches
could just be ignored.
Post by The Todal
Even if the Labour manifesto pledged to revoke Brexit and the Tory
manifesto pledged to a no-deal Brexit, a general election would not be
giving the electorate a clear choice between those options. Revocation
plus nationalisation of the railways?  No deal Brexit coupled with
selling off parts of the NHS?
I see you're agreeing with me again that it would be better for us to
leave the EU before an election. That would avoid the sort of confusion
you're talking about.
Post by The Todal
Either way I don't believe there would be more than a handful of new MPs
who were in favour of a no-deal Brexit.
No. The Conservatives will weed out those who can't or won't go along
with it before they're elected.
Post by The Todal
And they would be perfectly
entitled to change their minds and oppose a no-deal Brexit after the
intelligent grownups had explained the facts of life to them. Because
no-deal is not an intelligent choice.
In theory perhaps, but they will have seen the consequences so may think
twice about ending their careers before they've hardly begun.
Keema's Nan
2019-09-08 18:57:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
How would a general election help? Maybe Boris hopes to flood the
House with MPs who support a no-deal. That won't ever happen.
Well, that nice Mr Corbyn, whom I thought you supported, said this only
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine dedmocracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."
Do you disagree with that?
It makes perfect sense when you're talking about a manifesto full of
pledges and plans. But it does not in any way solve Brexit. A hung
Parliament with Corbyn as PM,
Fucking hell. What idiotic planet are you people on?

There is not a hope in hell of Corbyn coming within 100 seats of the Tories.

You had better try getting used to reality, because your fantasy land is
fucked.
Pamela
2019-09-08 16:50:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
How would a general election help? Maybe Boris hopes to flood the House
with MPs who support a no-deal. That won't ever happen.
Well, that nice Mr Corbyn, whom I thought you supported, said this only
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine dedmocracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."
Do you disagree with that?
That quotation you seem fond of posting is not exactly a golden bullet which
traps and commits Corbyn into calling for an election. Far from it.

What's more, Corbyn needs support from other parties to get the two-thirds
majority, which means an election is not in his gift.
Fredxx
2019-09-08 17:47:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Norman Wells
Post by The Todal
How would a general election help? Maybe Boris hopes to flood the House
with MPs who support a no-deal. That won't ever happen.
Well, that nice Mr Corbyn, whom I thought you supported, said this only
"When a government finds itself without a majority, the solution is not
to undermine dedmocracy. The solution is to let the people decide and
call a general election. It is the people, not an unelected Prime
Minister, who should determine our country's future. An election is the
democratic way forward."
Do you disagree with that?
That quotation you seem fond of posting is not exactly a golden bullet which
traps and commits Corbyn into calling for an election. Far from it.
What's more, Corbyn needs support from other parties to get the two-thirds
majority, which means an election is not in his gift.
Are you suggesting if you add Tories and Labour MPs together that won't
exceed 2/3 majority?

Maths isn't your strong point.
m***@btopenworld.com
2019-09-08 09:42:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Todal
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Thank heavens that there is a solution to the conundrum. The letter will
be signed, certainly, but by someone other than Boris Johnson. The
Foreign Secretary? The Brexit Secretary? The Queen's Secretary? The
Groom of the Stool?
And then Boris can give a pompous crowd-pleasing speech about how it
pained him greatly to see the letter and he couldn't bring himself to
sign it. Applause, cheers, and the ladies will throw their knickers at him.
You are simply a fool.

Any such letter would be signed on behalf of the UK by the leader of the British Government though it might well be endorsed by Elizabeth R as are most international agreements.


Even the EU has made it clear that it will only negotiate with the UK Government (not with the UK Parliament of opposition) It is that fact that makes Boris's signature so important. BTW representatives of all the EU member governments witll add their X too!
Roger
2019-09-07 19:49:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Well for starters the requires the PM to ask for an extension if there is no deal. There are several ways that can happen without breaking the law.
Pamela
2019-09-08 08:37:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Hint: we're not leaving on 31st October and we're not crashing out.

Dishonest Boris with Dominic's help may wriggle to deny Parliament a voice
but it's too late for his sabotage. Parliament has taken back control.
Omega
2019-09-08 11:11:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Hint: we're not leaving on 31st October and we're not crashing out.
Latest news, France disagrees!

omega
Post by Pamela
Dishonest Boris with Dominic's help may wriggle to deny Parliament a voice
but it's too late for his sabotage. Parliament has taken back control.
Pamela
2019-09-08 12:10:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Omega
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Hint: we're not leaving on 31st October and we're not crashing out.
Latest news, France disagrees!
omega
Latest correction, no France doesn't!
Omega
2019-09-08 12:18:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Hint: we're not leaving on 31st October and we're not crashing out.
Latest news, France disagrees!
omega
Latest correction, no France doesn't!
Yep! Not a mention of it anywhere now so back to the title of my post?

Who Should We Believe?

omega
Pamela
2019-09-08 12:28:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Omega
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not
ask Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in
gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it
will not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Hint: we're not leaving on 31st October and we're not crashing out.
Latest news, France disagrees!
omega
Latest correction, no France doesn't!
Yep! Not a mention of it anywhere
There's a rumour attributed to someone in the Frecnh government that
Macron may or may not want a clearer rationale for the extension. How on
earth does that that equate to "France diagrees"?
Post by Omega
now so back to the title of my post?
Who Should We Believe?
You won't go wrong if you believe the opposite of what Boris says.
Despite the braggadocio and pledges to the contrary, Boris will sign the
agreement -- or a representative will do so for him.
Sn!pe
2019-09-08 12:30:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Omega
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Hint: we're not leaving on 31st October and we're not crashing out.
Latest news, France disagrees!
omega
Latest correction, no France doesn't!
Yep! Not a mention of it anywhere now so back to the title of my post?
Who Should We Believe?
omega
<https://tinyurl.com/y629yvlv>
<https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-latest-article-50-delay-france-boris-johnson-extension-a9096361.html>

HTH
--
^Ï^ My pet rock Gordon notes that
"Monsieur Macron, il dit non."
tim...
2019-09-08 12:37:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
Post by Pamela
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
omega
Hint: we're not leaving on 31st October and we're not crashing out.
Latest news, France disagrees!
omega
Latest correction, no France doesn't!
can't trust the froggies further than you can throw them

They could change their mind tomorrow

tim
m***@btopenworld.com
2019-09-08 09:33:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Omega
At this moment, Yahoo news is reporting, Boris will definitely not ask
Brussels for a further extension even though it may put him in gaol.
Simultaneously the BBC news site report, the government has said it will
not break the law.
How the hell are lay people to know what the hell is going on?
Negotiations simply cannot be carried out through loud speaker.

We shall simply have to wait and see.
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