Discussion:
The pound surges as Boris Johnson reshuffles his cabinet!
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Tufnell Park
2020-02-13 15:43:28 UTC
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The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.

Another election and Brexit bonus!
Pamela
2020-02-13 17:20:23 UTC
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Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.

No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
Tufnell Park
2020-02-13 17:22:38 UTC
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Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
abelard
2020-02-13 17:24:37 UTC
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On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 17:22:38 +0000, Tufnell Park
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
s/ge make 'her' living on the ggs
--
www.abelard.org
Pamela
2020-02-14 18:35:08 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
Keema's Nan
2020-02-14 18:49:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
Pamela
2020-02-14 21:07:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
Keema's Nan
2020-02-14 21:13:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his
cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don’t you wish you were?
Ian Jackson
2020-02-14 21:45:55 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his
cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of
Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don’t you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.

As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few Brexiteers
can give any specific and plausible examples of how the ordinary
man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit from us leaving
the EU - and if by chance they do manage to come up with something,
justify the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
--
Ian
Keema's Nan
2020-02-14 21:59:49 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his
cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of
Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don’t you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few Brexiteers
can give any specific and plausible examples of how the ordinary
man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit from us leaving
the EU -
I thought you might have the courage to give us an example of how we are not
going to benefit from remaining in the EU, without resorting to hypothetical
situations and guesswork - but you seem to have chickened out.
Post by Ian Jackson
and if by chance they do manage to come up with something,
justify the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
Which damage would that be? (Remember, no guessing or hypotheticals).
Pamela
2020-02-17 16:30:13 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
On 17:22 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
On 15:43 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris
reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on
account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to
Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don't you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few Brexiteers
can give any specific and plausible examples of how the ordinary
man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit from us leaving
the EU -
I thought you might have the courage to give us an example of how we are
not going to benefit from remaining in the EU, without resorting to
hypothetical situations and guesswork - but you seem to have chickened
out.
Post by Ian Jackson
and if by chance they do manage to come up with something,
justify the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
Which damage would that be? (Remember, no guessing or hypotheticals).
As you ask, one way the UK will not benefit from Brexit is the additional
£20 billion cost for customs checks. It makes our net contribution to the
EU look small by comparison.
JNugent
2020-02-17 22:41:27 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
On 17:22 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
On 15:43 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris
reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don't you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few Brexiteers
can give any specific and plausible examples of how the ordinary
man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit from us leaving
the EU -
I thought you might have the courage to give us an example of how we are
not going to benefit from remaining in the EU, without resorting to
hypothetical situations and guesswork - but you seem to have chickened
out.
Post by Ian Jackson
and if by chance they do manage to come up with something,
justify the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
Which damage would that be? (Remember, no guessing or hypotheticals).
As you ask, one way the UK will not benefit from Brexit is the additional
£20 billion cost for customs checks. It makes our net contribution to the
EU look small by comparison.
We already have HMRC and the former C&E branches of it. They've been
working all the time because most countries of the world are not in the
European Empire.

Are you saying it's going to cost £20,000,000,000 a year more?

If you are, why do you say it/
Pamela
2020-02-18 13:13:37 UTC
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Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
On 17:22 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
On 15:43 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris
reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on
account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don't you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few Brexiteers
can give any specific and plausible examples of how the ordinary
man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit from us
leaving the EU -
I thought you might have the courage to give us an example of how we
are not going to benefit from remaining in the EU, without resorting
to hypothetical situations and guesswork - but you seem to have
chickened out.
Post by Ian Jackson
and if by chance they do manage to come up with something,
justify the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
Which damage would that be? (Remember, no guessing or hypotheticals).
As you ask, one way the UK will not benefit from Brexit is the
additional £20 billion cost for customs checks. It makes our net
contribution to the EU look small by comparison.
We already have HMRC and the former C&E branches of it. They've been
working all the time because most countries of the world are not in the
European Empire.
Are you saying it's going to cost £20,000,000,000 a year more?
If you are, why do you say it/
Don;t you recall that HMRC produced this figure? The BBC analysed HMRC's
£20 billion estimate and didn't find any obvious errors. See here:

"Brexit: How did HMRC get to a £20bn customs cost?"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226
JNugent
2020-02-19 02:02:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
On 17:22 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
On 15:43 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris
reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on
account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don't you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few Brexiteers
can give any specific and plausible examples of how the ordinary
man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit from us
leaving the EU -
I thought you might have the courage to give us an example of how we
are not going to benefit from remaining in the EU, without resorting
to hypothetical situations and guesswork - but you seem to have
chickened out.
Post by Ian Jackson
and if by chance they do manage to come up with something,
justify the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
Which damage would that be? (Remember, no guessing or hypotheticals).
As you ask, one way the UK will not benefit from Brexit is the
additional £20 billion cost for customs checks. It makes our net
contribution to the EU look small by comparison.
We already have HMRC and the former C&E branches of it. They've been
working all the time because most countries of the world are not in the
European Empire.
Are you saying it's going to cost £20,000,000,000 a year more?
If you are, why do you say it/
Don;t you recall that HMRC produced this figure? The BBC analysed HMRC's
"Brexit: How did HMRC get to a £20bn customs cost?"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226
"Cost"?

Or "extra cost"?
Pamela
2020-02-19 09:52:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
On 14 Feb 2020, Ian Jackson wrote (in article
Post by Ian Jackson
On 14 Feb 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 14 Feb 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
On 17:22 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
On 15:43 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris
reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on
account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to
Mr and Mrs Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don't you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few
Brexiteers can give any specific and plausible examples of how the
ordinary man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit
from us leaving the EU -
I thought you might have the courage to give us an example of how we
are not going to benefit from remaining in the EU, without resorting
to hypothetical situations and guesswork - but you seem to have
chickened out.
Post by Ian Jackson
and if by chance they do manage to come up with something, justify
the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
Which damage would that be? (Remember, no guessing or
hypotheticals).
As you ask, one way the UK will not benefit from Brexit is the
additional £20 billion cost for customs checks. It makes our net
contribution to the EU look small by comparison.
We already have HMRC and the former C&E branches of it. They've been
working all the time because most countries of the world are not in
the European Empire.
Are you saying it's going to cost £20,000,000,000 a year more?
If you are, why do you say it/
Don;t you recall that HMRC produced this figure? The BBC analysed
HMRC's £20 billion estimate and didn't find any obvious errors. See
"Brexit: How did HMRC get to a £20bn customs cost?"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226
"Cost"?
Or "extra cost"?
Glad to be of service by finding it for you.

Their cost estimate is for the additional requirement brought by Brexit.
Sounds like you haven't come across HMRC's Brexit calulation before.
JNugent
2020-02-19 11:57:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
On 14 Feb 2020, Ian Jackson wrote (in article
Post by Ian Jackson
On 14 Feb 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 14 Feb 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
On 17:22 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
On 15:43 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris
reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on
account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to
Mr and Mrs Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don't you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few
Brexiteers can give any specific and plausible examples of how the
ordinary man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit
from us leaving the EU -
I thought you might have the courage to give us an example of how we
are not going to benefit from remaining in the EU, without resorting
to hypothetical situations and guesswork - but you seem to have
chickened out.
Post by Ian Jackson
and if by chance they do manage to come up with something, justify
the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
Which damage would that be? (Remember, no guessing or
hypotheticals).
As you ask, one way the UK will not benefit from Brexit is the
additional £20 billion cost for customs checks. It makes our net
contribution to the EU look small by comparison.
We already have HMRC and the former C&E branches of it. They've been
working all the time because most countries of the world are not in
the European Empire.
Are you saying it's going to cost £20,000,000,000 a year more?
If you are, why do you say it/
Don;t you recall that HMRC produced this figure? The BBC analysed
HMRC's £20 billion estimate and didn't find any obvious errors. See
"Brexit: How did HMRC get to a £20bn customs cost?"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226
"Cost"?
Or "extra cost"?
Glad to be of service by finding it for you.
Their cost estimate is for the additional requirement brought by Brexit.
Sounds like you haven't come across HMRC's Brexit calulation before.
I am mildly surprised that the UK's entire customs operation (as opposed
to, and distinct from, its revenue functions) costs as much as
£20,000,000,000 a year.
Andy Walker
2020-02-19 10:36:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[..]
Post by JNugent
Don;t you recall that HMRC produced this figure?  The BBC analysed HMRC's
    "Brexit: How did HMRC get to a £20bn customs cost?"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226
"Cost"?
Or "extra cost"?
For a different sort of "reality check", £20bnpa is enough
to employ ~300000 FTE low-to-middle-ranking professionals including
their offices, computers, secretaries, .... That seems a little OTT.
It's a bit less, a bit more, or a lot more than the number of
accountants in the UK, depending on what qualifications you count,
or about twice the number of solicitors, or about half the number of
teachers, or about 3/2 the number of university lecturers, or about
5/2 the number of policemen, or about the same as the number of
doctors or of nurses.

IOW, Pamela, HMRC and the BBC are proposing that to deal
with customs post-Brexit, effectively a whole new profession on
the same scale as those mentioned will be necessary. That fails
all the "sniff" tests you can imagine. It also makes you wonder
how on earth we cope with trade with non-EU countries now.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Keema's Nan
2020-02-19 11:29:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Walker
[..]
Post by JNugent
Don;t you recall that HMRC produced this figure? The BBC analysed HMRC's
"Brexit: How did HMRC get to a £20bn customs cost?"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226
"Cost"?
Or "extra cost"?
For a different sort of "reality check", £20bnpa is enough
to employ ~300000 FTE low-to-middle-ranking professionals including
their offices, computers, secretaries, .... That seems a little OTT.
It's a bit less, a bit more, or a lot more than the number of
accountants in the UK, depending on what qualifications you count,
or about twice the number of solicitors, or about half the number of
teachers, or about 3/2 the number of university lecturers, or about
5/2 the number of policemen, or about the same as the number of
doctors or of nurses.
Or about half a dozen useless masonic captains of British industry, to run
companies such as Capita, Serco, etc., and then retire to the tax havens
immediately before they call in the receivers.
Post by Andy Walker
IOW, Pamela, HMRC and the BBC are proposing that to deal
with customs post-Brexit, effectively a whole new profession on
the same scale as those mentioned will be necessary. That fails
all the "sniff" tests you can imagine. It also makes you wonder
how on earth we cope with trade with non-EU countries now.
Roger
2020-02-19 11:38:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Walker
[..]
Post by JNugent
Don;t you recall that HMRC produced this figure?  The BBC analysed HMRC's
    "Brexit: How did HMRC get to a £20bn customs cost?"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226
"Cost"?
Or "extra cost"?
For a different sort of "reality check", £20bnpa is enough
to employ ~300000 FTE low-to-middle-ranking professionals including
their offices, computers, secretaries, .... That seems a little OTT.
It's a bit less, a bit more, or a lot more than the number of
accountants in the UK, depending on what qualifications you count,
or about twice the number of solicitors, or about half the number of
teachers, or about 3/2 the number of university lecturers, or about
5/2 the number of policemen, or about the same as the number of
doctors or of nurses.
IOW, Pamela, HMRC and the BBC are proposing that to deal
with customs post-Brexit, effectively a whole new profession on
the same scale as those mentioned will be necessary. That fails
all the "sniff" tests you can imagine. It also makes you wonder
how on earth we cope with trade with non-EU countries now.
As I understand it the problems facing customs have nothing to do with tariffs and taxes.....it's illicit shipments (illegal substances, counterfit products, non homogolated products etc.). It dosn't matter where they come from....with so much stuff being shipped these days it's getting impossible to control.....but open borders of course make this more difficult.
JNugent
2020-02-19 12:00:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Andy Walker
[..]
Post by JNugent
Don;t you recall that HMRC produced this figure?  The BBC analysed HMRC's
    "Brexit: How did HMRC get to a £20bn customs cost?"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226
"Cost"?
Or "extra cost"?
For a different sort of "reality check", £20bnpa is enough
to employ ~300000 FTE low-to-middle-ranking professionals including
their offices, computers, secretaries, .... That seems a little OTT.
It's a bit less, a bit more, or a lot more than the number of
accountants in the UK, depending on what qualifications you count,
or about twice the number of solicitors, or about half the number of
teachers, or about 3/2 the number of university lecturers, or about
5/2 the number of policemen, or about the same as the number of
doctors or of nurses.
IOW, Pamela, HMRC and the BBC are proposing that to deal
with customs post-Brexit, effectively a whole new profession on
the same scale as those mentioned will be necessary. That fails
all the "sniff" tests you can imagine. It also makes you wonder
how on earth we cope with trade with non-EU countries now.
As I understand it the problems facing customs have nothing to do with tariffs and taxes.....it's illicit shipments (illegal substances, counterfit products, non homogolated products etc.). It dosn't matter where they come from....with so much stuff being shipped these days it's getting impossible to control.....but open borders of course make this more difficult.
That is why I separated the concept of the customs function from the
revenue functions (whether traditional C&E or Inland Revenue).
JNugent
2020-02-19 11:59:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[..]
Post by JNugent
Don;t you recall that HMRC produced this figure?  The BBC analysed HMRC's
    "Brexit: How did HMRC get to a £20bn customs cost?"
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44238226
"Cost"?
Or "extra cost"?
    For a different sort of "reality check", £20bnpa is enough
to employ ~300000 FTE low-to-middle-ranking professionals including
their offices, computers, secretaries, ....  That seems a little OTT.
It's a bit less, a bit more, or a lot more than the number of
accountants in the UK, depending on what qualifications you count,
or about twice the number of solicitors, or about half the number of
teachers, or about 3/2 the number of university lecturers, or about
5/2 the number of policemen, or about the same as the number of
doctors or of nurses.
    IOW, Pamela, HMRC and the BBC are proposing that to deal
with customs post-Brexit, effectively a whole new profession on
the same scale as those mentioned will be necessary.  That fails
all the "sniff" tests you can imagine.  It also makes you wonder
how on earth we cope with trade with non-EU countries now.
Thank you.

The £20,000,000,000 "extra cost" just didn't seem at all likely.
Incubus
2020-02-17 09:58:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his
cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of
Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don’t you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few Brexiteers
can give any specific and plausible examples of how the ordinary
man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit from us leaving
the EU - and if by chance they do manage to come up with something,
justify the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
We do give examples but Remainers generally just counter that with the "damage"
argument despite never giving any specific and plausible examples of that in
turn. The whole debate is a stalemate and I have generally ceased to engage.
As long as Boris doesn't fuck it up, we'll have proof of the benefits of
leaving soon enough. Then one side can tell the other "I told you so".
Roger
2020-02-17 10:15:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his
cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of
Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don’t you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few Brexiteers
can give any specific and plausible examples of how the ordinary
man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit from us leaving
the EU - and if by chance they do manage to come up with something,
justify the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
--
Ian
Well that's because James O'Brian and others are asking the wrong questions.

The people of Redcar are looking for is somebody with the balls to try doing something different, because for the last 40 years they've seen nothing but decline.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-51468792/redcar-voters-discuss-the-change-they-want-for-their-town

They don't care about comparisons. But nor do remainers, because if they looked at the EU's performance over the decades they would see it has not brought prosperity.

Mr and Mrs Average go on gut reaction: Mrs and Mrs I'm so clever are so full of themselves they they can't be arsed to actually go and look at the big picture.

And while we're on the subject of criticizing Mr and Mrs Oh so clever, if we ask them how they intend to 'remain' they just blithly reply 'maintaining the status quo' as if the Euro problem does not exist.
Pamela
2020-02-17 19:03:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Ian Jackson
On 14 Feb 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 14 Feb 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
On 17:22 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
On 15:43 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris
reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on
account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to
Mr and Mrs Average?
I think they will benefit from becoming Mr and Mrs Above Average.
In what way, exactly?
By being above average. Don't you wish you were?
Pamela - you're wasting your time if you expect a sensible answer.
As James o'Brien has found out on countless occasions, few Brexiteers
can give any specific and plausible examples of how the ordinary
man-in-the-British-street is going to genuinely benefit from us leaving
the EU - and if by chance they do manage to come up with something,
justify the benefit compared to the damage we are likely to suffer.
-- Ian
Well that's because James O'Brian and others are asking the wrong questions.
The people of Redcar are looking for is somebody with the balls to try
doing something different, because for the last 40 years they've seen
nothing but decline.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-51468792/redcar-voters-
discuss-the-change-they-want-for-their-town
They don't care about comparisons.
But nor do remainers, because if they looked at the EU's performance
over the decades they would see it has not brought prosperity.
The EU has brought unprecedented prosperity, not least to a failing
Britain in the '60s and '70s to the present day.
Post by Roger
Mr and Mrs Average go on gut reaction: Mrs and Mrs I'm so clever are so
full of themselves they they can't be arsed to actually go and look at
the big picture.
And while we're on the subject of criticizing Mr and Mrs Oh so clever,
if we ask them how they intend to 'remain' they just blithly reply
'maintaining the status quo' as if the Euro problem does not exist.
Britain is not a member of the Euro and would not bankroll any of the
Euro's problems, which is how we didn't get ensnared in the Greek currency
crisis. Unless I have misunderstood it, the problem you mention about the
UK and Euro is largely imaginary.
Joe
2020-02-17 20:12:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:03:16 GMT
Pamela <***@gmail.com> wrote:

y.
Post by Pamela
The EU has brought unprecedented prosperity, not least to a failing
Britain in the '60s and '70s to the present day.
No. What improvement in standard of living there has been since then is
almost entirely due to technology. The only politician I can think of
who made any kind of technological advancement was Benjamin Franklin.

As for public services and infrastructure, Britain is demonstrably less
prosperous than it was fifty years ago, in ways I have mentioned before
and many others.
--
Joe
Roger
2020-02-17 22:15:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:03:16 GMT
y.
Post by Pamela
The EU has brought unprecedented prosperity, not least to a failing
Britain in the '60s and '70s to the present day.
How on earth do you attribute that to the EU.

Go and compare GDP growth rate with extra EU peers post war to date. It is the most obvious data one would look at to test such a theory. All economies have grown but the second derivative, the growth rate, shows that they have not been growing at the same rate.

Your attitude exactly maps that of the Mr and Mrs Oh so clever who can't be arsed to actually check the lies they keep spinning and face up to reality.
Pamela
2020-02-18 13:19:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Joe
On Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:03:16 GMT
Post by Pamela
The EU has brought unprecedented prosperity, not least to a failing
Britain in the '60s and '70s to the present day.
How on earth do you attribute that to the EU.
Go and compare GDP growth rate with extra EU peers post war to date. It
is the most obvious data one would look at to test such a theory. All
economies have grown but the second derivative, the growth rate, shows
that they have not been growing at the same rate.
Nice try at using an irrelavant time period. "Post war" in not "post UK
accession".

Furthermore, comparing GDP growth between countries is largely irrelevant
because the EU has a synergistic effect and raises growth rates in almost all
member countries in the long run. I'm sorry you can't accept the facts.
abelard
2020-02-18 13:25:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Furthermore, comparing GDP growth between countries is largely irrelevant
because the EU has a synergistic effect and raises growth rates in almost all
member countries in the long run. I'm sorry you can't accept the facts.
your uninformed babbling does not 'equate' to 'facts'
--
www.abelard.org
Roger
2020-02-18 15:02:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Furthermore, comparing GDP growth between countries is largely irrelevant
because the EU has a synergistic effect and raises growth rates in almost all
member countries in the long run. I'm sorry you can't accept the facts.
So if these Sysnergistic effects had occured we would expect to have seen the rate of Economic growth in the EU increase with respect to non EU western countries as more countries join up.

This has not happend.

I cannot find any facts that demonstrate this, in fact we find the opposite.

Should we invent numbers to please you?
The Iceberg
2020-02-18 15:27:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Furthermore, comparing GDP growth between countries is largely irrelevant
because the EU has a synergistic effect and raises growth rates in almost all
member countries in the long run. I'm sorry you can't accept the facts.
So if these Sysnergistic effects had occured we would expect to have seen the rate of Economic growth in the EU increase with respect to non EU western countries as more countries join up.
This has not happend.
I cannot find any facts that demonstrate this, in fact we find the opposite.
Should we invent numbers to please you?
why is she so biased towards the EU?
Roger
2020-02-18 15:33:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Iceberg
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Furthermore, comparing GDP growth between countries is largely irrelevant
because the EU has a synergistic effect and raises growth rates in almost all
member countries in the long run. I'm sorry you can't accept the facts.
So if these Sysnergistic effects had occured we would expect to have seen the rate of Economic growth in the EU increase with respect to non EU western countries as more countries join up.
This has not happend.
I cannot find any facts that demonstrate this, in fact we find the opposite.
Should we invent numbers to please you?
why is she so biased towards the EU?
I've always imagined that she works as an EU pen pusher or something, except that she seems to know nothing about the EU, or indeed Europe in general.
Tufnell Park
2020-02-18 11:46:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
Lower personal taxes due to no EU contributions in future?
Roger
2020-02-18 12:41:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
Lower personal taxes due to no EU contributions in future?
That's unlikely. But nor is it what Mr & Mrs Average were asking for. There is this obsession with calculating losses and gains as if the UK were deciding the most cost effective car to buy for their typical journey. Most of the time our first priority is a list of cars we are comfortable with, then we compare efficiency.

People are finding themselves living in society that has rules and laws that make no sense to them; they make no sense because they were not made for them....they were rules invented to make compromises far away from their world and made by people who seem to be increasingly out of touch with reality.

As the woman in the video earlier put it (about the Redcar closure but could be anywhere in the UK depressed economies) "It's taken the pride away, not just financially". I know a lot of people who are unable to understand that statement; they cannot understand it because they have never been in the situation.

Onyourbike Tebbit got lynched for failing to grasp the meaning of this; nowadays it's almost acceptable for politicians to be oblivious to ordinary people, at least for the press who are only interested in scandal mongering. Fortunately there where the elections to wake everybody up a bit.

But it seems that some still havn't grasped it.
Pamela
2020-02-18 13:22:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
On 15:43 13 Feb 2020, Tufnell Park
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr
and Mrs Average?
Lower personal taxes due to no EU contributions in future?
That's unlikely. But nor is it what Mr & Mrs Average were asking for.
There is this obsession with calculating losses and gains as if the UK
were deciding the most cost effective car to buy for their typical
journey. Most of the time our first priority is a list of cars we are
comfortable with, then we compare efficiency.
People are finding themselves living in society that has rules and laws
that make no sense to them; they make no sense because they were not
made for them....they were rules invented to make compromises far away
from their world and made by people who seem to be increasingly out of
touch with reality.
As the woman in the video earlier put it (about the Redcar closure but
could be anywhere in the UK depressed economies) "It's taken the pride
away, not just financially". I know a lot of people who are unable to
understand that statement; they cannot understand it because they have
never been in the situation.
Onyourbike Tebbit got lynched for failing to grasp the meaning of this;
nowadays it's almost acceptable for politicians to be oblivious to
ordinary people, at least for the press who are only interested in
scandal mongering. Fortunately there where the elections to wake
everybody up a bit.
But it seems that some still havn't grasped it.
Roger, why do you concern yourself with social matters and personal pride
in a country which you have left? Do you ever plan on returning?

It's hard enough to understand why you left the UK when there is plenty of
work here. Perhaps you're not very committed to it.
Roger
2020-02-18 14:57:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Roger, why do you concern yourself with social matters and personal pride
in a country which you have left? Do you ever plan on returning?
Ye gods.....I'm actually nearer London than I would be in some UK towns...you make it sound like I've emigrated to Australia :D

For what it's worth whilst currently spending most of my time here I do have a house in the UK and I am a UK citizen.
Post by Pamela
It's hard enough to understand why you left the UK when there is plenty of
work here. Perhaps you're not very committed to it.
You can only manage to see things in terms of work?! For what it's worth (I've said this before, but you never listen to what other people are saying...) I am a great fan of Europe in general. I'm all for inter European organisation and institutions from CERN through to the Eurovision Song Contest.

The EU, on the other hand, is irrevocably crashed. I don't expect you to understand that, you repeatedly demonstrate a total lack of knowledge about it's structure and objectives.....however just bear in mind that I am in favour of Brexit for the love of Europe, not the hate of it.

I think Europe would be a much better place if it concentrated on collaboration, not centralised collective control like the soviet union.
Pamela
2020-02-18 19:26:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Roger, why do you concern yourself with social matters and personal pride
in a country which you have left? Do you ever plan on returning?
Ye gods.....I'm actually nearer London than I would be in some UK towns.
Are you sure about your facts?

Inverness to London is 570 miles.
Varese to London is 740 miles

Where in Italy are you that's closer to London than Varese?
Post by Roger
..you make it sound like I've emigrated to Australia :D
For what it's worth whilst currently spending most of my time here I do
have a house in the UK and I am a UK citizen.
Post by Pamela
It's hard enough to understand why you left the UK when there is plenty
of work here. Perhaps you're not very committed to it.
You can only manage to see things in terms of work?!
You not only work in Italy but live there. Strange to hear someone who
lacks the committment to live and work in the UK tell Brits what is best
for them.
Post by Roger
For what it's worth I am a great fan of Europe in general. I'm all for
inter European organisation and institutions from CERN through to the
Eurovision Song Contest.
The EU, on the other hand, is irrevocably crashed. I don't expect you to
understand that, you repeatedly demonstrate a total lack of knowledge
about it's structure and objectives.....however just bear in mind that I
am in favour of Brexit for the love of Europe, not the hate of it.
I think Europe would be a much better place if it concentrated on
collaboration, not centralised collective control like the soviet union.
Of course, there is no "centralised collective control like the soviet
union" in the EU even if it helps you play to the gallery's prejudices to say
it. Does it irk you that Italy has kept a cool head and although there is a
malcontented minority, the majority of Italians want to stay in the EU?
Keema's Nan
2020-02-18 13:25:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his
cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
Lower personal taxes due to no EU contributions in future?
That's unlikely. But nor is it what Mr & Mrs Average were asking for. There
is this obsession with calculating losses and gains as if the UK were
deciding the most cost effective car to buy for their typical journey. Most
of the time our first priority is a list of cars we are comfortable with,
Have you ever watched a TV car advert?

Most show smug, self satisfied drivers trying to impress everyone with their
new purchase - even their daughter’s schoolmates in one pervy version.

One car ad even spills the beans and admits their offering illustrates the
owners’ status.

The advertisers would not pay vast amounts of money to portray this idea, if
it were not true.
then we compare
It with what the neighbours have.
efficiency.
People are finding themselves living in society that has rules and laws that
make no sense to them; they make no sense because they were not made for
them....they were rules invented to make compromises far away from their
world and made by people who seem to be increasingly out of touch with
reality.
As the woman in the video earlier put it (about the Redcar closure but could
be anywhere in the UK depressed economies) "It's taken the pride away, not
just financially". I know a lot of people who are unable to understand that
statement; they cannot understand it because they have never been in the
situation.
Onyourbike Tebbit got lynched for failing to grasp the meaning of this;
nowadays it's almost acceptable for politicians to be oblivious to ordinary
people, at least for the press who are only interested in scandal mongering.
Fortunately there where the elections to wake everybody up a bit.
But it seems that some still havn't grasped it.
Tufnell Park
2020-02-18 17:28:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
Lower personal taxes due to no EU contributions in future?
That's unlikely.
I think it is more than likely, we have a budget due in about 3 weeks
and it's odd's on that personal allownaces will be increased by around
£750 with a commitment to lower by the same amounts in future years.
Roger
2020-02-18 18:00:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Roger
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
We shall have to wait a little while to see!
What's the first tangible benefit you expect Brexit to bring to Mr and Mrs
Average?
Lower personal taxes due to no EU contributions in future?
That's unlikely.
I think it is more than likely, we have a budget due in about 3 weeks
and it's odd's on that personal allownaces will be increased by around
£750 with a commitment to lower by the same amounts in future years.
You may be right, but I don't know how much I would attribute tax cuts to lack of EU contributions. Although the UK was a net contributor it will incur more expenses so one cancels the other. BTW, the 'why did you vote the way you did surveys' highlighted that people did NOT believe the famous slogan on the bus ;-)


But like I said, you may be right because, as some people have pointed out, the net contribution sits atop a somewhat inefficient and large cashflow and we say net because it is also 'net' of EU funded projects....some of which have dubious or self serving value.
JNugent
2020-02-19 11:52:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[ ... ]
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Roger
   Lower personal taxes due to no EU contributions in future?
That's unlikely.
I think it is more than likely, we have a budget due in about 3 weeks
and it's odd's on that personal allownaces will be increased by around
£750 with a commitment to lower by the same amounts in future years.
An increase in allowance by £750 with a promise to reduce the allowance
by the same amount in a subsequent budget?

What advantage would there be in such a move?
Tufnell Park
2020-02-19 13:15:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
[ ... ]
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Roger
   Lower personal taxes due to no EU contributions in future?
That's unlikely.
I think it is more than likely, we have a budget due in about 3 weeks
and it's odd's on that personal allownaces will be increased by around
£750 with a commitment to lower by the same amounts in future years.
An increase in allowance by £750 with a promise to reduce the allowance
by the same amount in a subsequent budget?
What advantage would there be in such a move?
My bad expression, of course i meant to further increase the allowance
in subsequent budgets.
JNugent
2020-02-19 15:49:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by JNugent
[ ... ]
Post by Tufnell Park
Post by Roger
   Lower personal taxes due to no EU contributions in future?
That's unlikely.
I think it is more than likely, we have a budget due in about 3 weeks
and it's odd's on that personal allownaces will be increased by
around £750 with a commitment to lower by the same amounts in future
years.
An increase in allowance by £750 with a promise to reduce the
allowance by the same amount in a subsequent budget?
What advantage would there be in such a move?
My bad expression, of course i meant to further increase the allowance
in subsequent budgets.
OK.

abelard
2020-02-13 17:23:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Tufnell Park
The pound has surged to over 1.20 euros as Boris reshuffles his cabinet.
Another election and Brexit bonus!
For a day.
No one with any sense is expecting the pound to rise on account of Brexit.
leaves you out then

only last week you were making the usual idiot of yourself...

now you want to trump it
--
www.abelard.org
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