Discussion:
Piss Poor response - Political reform needed
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David Edmunds
2020-03-25 13:12:37 UTC
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A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.

Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.

The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off

What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?

The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.

We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.

David Martin Edmunds
Keema's Nan
2020-03-25 13:49:17 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with
our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every
persuasion.
A system which doesn’t immediately see wealthy corporations and their
masonic leaders trying to maximise profits in an emergency, as their
knee-jerk reaction.
Post by David Edmunds
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people
and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and
deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw
in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations
less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the
fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less
relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves?
How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and
inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so
but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long
lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on
and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing
systems.
David Martin Edmunds
m***@btopenworld.com
2020-03-25 14:49:05 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
What are you talking about? Thousands have died in China and continue to die.

China is the place where a whistle blowing doctor was threatened with police prosecution for spreading alarm and despondency.

The trouble is that no independent news, information or data comes out of either China or North Korea. All you get is the Government take on everything which means of course it serves a government purpose.
David Edmunds
2020-03-25 15:09:56 UTC
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I think you are proving the points on xenophobia. We have long ceased to be an exceptional nation - if we ever were, that is.

Senior people in WHO are heaping fulsome praise on the people behind the Chinese response. Just compare the graphic data; Italy, Spain, the UK and US. - China, Korea and Japan.
m***@btopenworld.com
2020-03-25 19:54:52 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
I think you are proving the points on xenophobia. We have long ceased to be an exceptional nation - if we ever were, that is.
Senior people in WHO are heaping fulsome praise on the people behind the Chinese response. Just compare the graphic data; Italy, Spain, the UK and US. - China, Korea and Japan.
The WHO will be just as dependent upon Chinese courced media as would the Western Media.

The trouble is that in a totalitarian regime like China we can never be sure that what we hear is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It is a single totalitarian government that defines reality. There is no free press, no freedom of speech, no right of free comment to challenge what government says.

Under such circumstances, one has no alternative but to take everything one hears at anything other than face value.
David Edmunds
2020-03-25 20:09:18 UTC
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A human rights lawyer friend based in Hong Kong often uses examples of progressive thinking from the People's Republic as a lever to influence the HK government.

Not nearly as simple as you make out.

David Martin Edmunds
Keema's Nan
2020-03-25 16:43:28 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by David Edmunds
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and
inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so
but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long
lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months
on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing
systems.
What are you talking about? Thousands have died in China and continue to die.
Only 3281 (when I last looked) out of a population of 1.5 billion.

Which is 0.00022% of the population.

Isn’t it strange how rightards continue to concentrate on China, when their
positive cases cumulative total will be overtaken by the USA come this
weekend?

That might shut the loudmouths up for a while.
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
China is the place where a whistle blowing doctor was threatened with police
prosecution for spreading alarm and despondency.
The trouble is that no independent news, information or data comes out of
either China or North Korea. All you get is the Government take on everything
which means of course it serves a government purpose.
True Blue
2020-03-25 15:02:36 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
A virus has caused these infections and deaths and there was very little the government could do about it. Grow up.
David Edmunds
2020-03-25 16:00:54 UTC
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They could have listened to the scientists

David Martin Edmunds
Maxwell Boltzmann
2020-03-25 16:37:02 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
They could have listened to the scientists
They have listened to the scientists, or some of them at least. They may
not have done what certain other scientists suggested they do, but it is
not easy to know what advice to follow where there is huge uncertainty
and conflicting advice. That's still true even now, let alone several
weeks ago when the information available was very unreliable.
--
Max
David Edmunds
2020-03-25 19:36:02 UTC
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They failed to pay sufficient attention to hear the bit about the scale of the problem.

David Martin Edmunds
abelard
2020-03-25 19:51:10 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 06:12:37 -0700 (PDT), David Edmunds
Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
britain is doing a first lass job...

you just have zero understanding of the best ways
to tackle complex annoyance...

an open educated society is vastly better at that than
any authoritarian socialist society
--
www.abelard.org
David Edmunds
2020-03-25 20:11:11 UTC
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Are we talking about YOUR annoyance?
abelard
2020-03-25 20:23:50 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:11:11 -0700 (PDT), David Edmunds
Post by David Edmunds
Are we talking about YOUR annoyance?
1)no
2)who is 'we'
--
www.abelard.org
David Edmunds
2020-03-25 22:46:54 UTC
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Post by abelard
Post by David Edmunds
Are we talking about YOUR annoyance?
1)no
2)who is 'we'
--
www.abelard.org
My criticism was of the early response, or rather the lack of it. The UK is capable of much and I fully expect that we will apply massive effective and exemplary effort to remedy the early failures. Failures nonetheless.

Failure to understand complexity may or may not be be one of my defects, however that is hardly relevant. In this country we tend to accept as leaders people who are spectacularly unqualified for the high seats of office that they aspire to and often occupy. Understanding quite simple ideas (as well as very complex ones)is a failing of our current leaders. Mr Churchill was a leader who possessed understanding. The wannabe Churchill in Number Ten is a fake.

You are perfectly correct that membership of an open educated society is a good thing, and it is self evidently something that all peoples deserve. This does not mean that these days everyone in China has a miserable life and is unable to express opinions, even ideas that differ little from the ones we are expressing in this newsgroup, however most would have little desire to do so and that is perhaps what should be annoying you.

David Martin Edmunds
abelard
2020-03-25 23:18:29 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 15:46:54 -0700 (PDT), David Edmunds
Post by David Edmunds
Post by abelard
Post by David Edmunds
Are we talking about YOUR annoyance?
1)no
2)who is 'we'
--
www.abelard.org
My criticism was of the early response, or rather the lack of it. The UK is capable of much and I fully expect that we will apply massive effective and exemplary effort to remedy the early failures. Failures nonetheless.
that's in the nature of complex and unexpected annoyances
Post by David Edmunds
Failure to understand complexity may or may not be be one of my defects, however that is hardly relevant. In this country we tend to accept as leaders people who are spectacularly unqualified for the high seats of office that they aspire to and often occupy. Understanding quite simple ideas (as well as very complex ones)is a failing of our current leaders. Mr Churchill was a leader who possessed understanding. The wannabe Churchill in Number Ten is a fake.
only performance will answer that

leadership is not clearly and directly related to engineering...
it includes sorting out a bluddy mess and delegating to suitable
people...
dyson and the like will sort out mass production of respirators...
not politicians let alone thick 'reporters'
the job of a politician is to get idiots out of the way of the
likes of dyson...to stop 'civil' 'servants' from trying to
intrude themselves into the process with demands for
licences and insurance...
and sort the *inevitable* messes out as they surface/occur

believe nothing...the world is jam packed with idiots who
are desperate to get their hands on microphones and
megaphones...and even money that is running loose
Post by David Edmunds
You are perfectly correct that membership of an open educated society is a good thing, and it is self evidently something that all peoples deserve. This does not mean that these days everyone in China has a miserable life and is unable to express opinions, even ideas that differ little from the ones we are expressing in this newsgroup, however most would have little desire to do so and that is perhaps what should be annoying you.
not clear to me...
chinese are good at copying

they are also good at generating annoyances...they caused covid!
--
www.abelard.org
Roger
2020-03-27 08:48:42 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
Not sure about Chinese data, but wad of statistics to hand (rate of change + derivative) it appears that the UK government are managing the outbreak better than Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Washington state, NY/NJ........
Keema's Nan
2020-03-27 09:44:08 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with
our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every
persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected
people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and
deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw
in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations
less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the
fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data
less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger
ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and
inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so
but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long
lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months
on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing
systems.
David Martin Edmunds
Not sure about Chinese data, but wad of statistics to hand (rate of change +
derivative) it appears that the UK government are managing the outbreak
better than Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Washington state, NY/NJ........
Washington state? They have only had 3200 cases. Not even as many as
California.
David Edmunds
2020-03-27 11:37:08 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
Not sure about Chinese data, but wad of statistics to hand (rate of change + derivative) it appears that the UK government are managing the outbreak better than Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Washington state, NY/NJ........
We now know that the British government held off doing very much about the pandemic until mid March as they had bought in to a Mitigation Policy, the idea that "Herd Immunity" would arrive as soon as 60% of the population had recovered from the disease. The switch to a Suppression Policy only came after the realisation of the likely size of the death toll (hundreds of thousands)that would result.

That is not managing the outbreak well at all.

Whoever was responsible for the government adopting and adhering to the Mitigation approach for a full two months is responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths and needs to be punished. At the very most we will get a toothless, British style "Enquiry" that lets the culprits off the hook.

David Martin Edmunds
m***@btopenworld.com
2020-03-27 22:19:30 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
Post by Roger
Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
Not sure about Chinese data, but wad of statistics to hand (rate of change + derivative) it appears that the UK government are managing the outbreak better than Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Washington state, NY/NJ........
We now know that the British government held off doing very much about the pandemic until mid March as they had bought in to a Mitigation Policy, the idea that "Herd Immunity" would arrive as soon as 60% of the population had recovered from the disease. The switch to a Suppression Policy only came after the realisation of the likely size of the death toll (hundreds of thousands)that would result.
That is not managing the outbreak well at all.
Whoever was responsible for the government adopting and adhering to the Mitigation approach for a full two months is responsible for thousands of unnecessary deaths and needs to be punished. At the very most we will get a toothless, British style "Enquiry" that lets the culprits off the hook.
In mid March you could have counted the number of deaths on your hands. Even now it stands at 659 against 'suppressed' Italy's total of 900 in one day. The UK response was science based. No doubt the anticipated rate of increase to 20000 by peak was deemed a politically unacceptable price to pay and was a factor in the apparent change of heart.

There is no two ways about it that if nothing had been done then the epidemic would eventually die out because this is what epidemics do. As the learned professor said on TV tonight. "Epidemics end when viruses run out of victims to infect" So provided the outcome of infection is not too severe, then the foregoing strategy may well be viable.

We might end up there in the end anyway if other strategies fail and don't think that the present strategy comes without cost anyway.

Far from it! It's a hell of a problem.
Keema's Nan
2020-03-28 08:21:09 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by David Edmunds
Post by Roger
Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught
with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every
persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected
people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and
deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling
off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some
flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain
nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have
answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA
somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are
prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice
and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or
so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including
long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two
months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and
tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
Not sure about Chinese data, but wad of statistics to hand (rate of change
+ derivative) it appears that the UK government are managing the outbreak
better than Italy, Spain, France, Germany, Washington state, NY/NJ........
We now know that the British government held off doing very much about the
pandemic until mid March as they had bought in to a Mitigation Policy, the
idea that "Herd Immunity" would arrive as soon as 60% of the population had
recovered from the disease. The switch to a Suppression Policy only came
after the realisation of the likely size of the death toll (hundreds of
thousands)that would result.
That is not managing the outbreak well at all.
Whoever was responsible for the government adopting and adhering to the
Mitigation approach for a full two months is responsible for thousands of
unnecessary deaths and needs to be punished. At the very most we will get a
toothless, British style "Enquiry" that lets the culprits off the hook.
In mid March you could have counted the number of deaths on your hands.
Now I know that you are inbred. Total new deaths registered on March 15th =
14. Just how many fingers do you have?
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Even
now it stands at 659 against 'suppressed' Italy's total of 900 in one day.
The UK response was science based. No doubt the anticipated rate of increase
to 20000 by peak was deemed a politically unacceptable price to pay and was a
factor in the apparent change of heart.
There is no two ways about it that if nothing had been done then the epidemic
would eventually die out because this is what epidemics do. As the learned
professor said on TV tonight. "Epidemics end when viruses run out of victims
to infect" So provided the outcome of infection is not too severe, then the
foregoing strategy may well be viable.
We might end up there in the end anyway if other strategies fail and don't
think that the present strategy comes without cost anyway.
Far from it! It's a hell of a problem.
David Edmunds
2020-03-28 07:39:19 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
your figure of 20000 seems overly optimistic, think one and a hal orders of magnitude more.

David Martin Edmunds
David Edmunds
2020-03-28 07:55:41 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
I was not quite right, Political Reform is not enough. Only Replacement will do. All of those who bought into the Mitigation over Suppression ideas should be out. A the helm we need truly competent people not plausible actors and speechmakers.
Roger
2020-03-28 09:56:01 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
I was not quite right, Political Reform is not enough. Only Replacement will do. All of those who bought into the Mitigation over Suppression ideas should be out. A the helm we need truly competent people not plausible actors and speechmakers.
You should come to Italy. They have been soing this for 30 years now....brand new party that's going to sweep away the old corrupt political system.....

You soon find out that new movements are either full of the old stock, OR, even worse, they really are new and spectacularly incompetent! Just imagine if you filled parliment with people who had been selected and elected by online polls on facbook and forums like this....not just the voters, also the candidates.

That's what happened in Italy at the last general election.

Most of them were actually unemployed because part of the electoral promise was to only draw a limited wage and abolish the pension they get if they don't get reelected at the next election. That wage meant any professional or managerial person would need to take a wage cut and blue collar workers risked not having a job to go back to. Put bluntly the candiates were failures.

Fortunately, allthough they came out as the largest party, they did not have a majority. Italy went for 5 months with no effective government because they were totally incapable of negotiating a coalition. Finally they formed a coalition with another party that still likes to present itself as a new movement, despite being the oldest party on the block. At least it had experienced and capable politicians, headed up by Matteo Salvini who was the de-facto prime minister (the actual prime minister, Giuseppe Conte, was a teaching Univirsity professor of international trade law until he was dropped into the hot seat, with no idea what he was doing).

The new 5 star movement realised that they were achieving nothing and appeared to proceed by removing the whip from any MP who dared to even say anything out of turn. Eventually they also boke up the coalition, and formed another one with the opposition. This also has seasoned politicians, and in fact it is now believed that Del Rio is running the show.

At the end of the day it is not effective.

BTW, I can think of another politician who went to power with no political experience on a promise that he would 'drain the swamp' of the established political cres.....

Just imagine for a moment if the country was being run by people like you and me?
David Edmunds
2020-03-28 10:10:07 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
Italy was not the model I was thinking of. Let the Tories stay in power (reluctantly) but take as our model the WW2 model. Sweep out the Chamberlains and wishy washies and let the competent ones come to the front. It happened in industries, the military and in politics in the early forties.

If you do not get the seriousness of the situation then
you are not a serious person. We need serious and able people in positions of power.

David Martin Edmunds
Roger
2020-03-28 12:47:39 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
Italy was not the model I was thinking of. Let the Tories stay in power (reluctantly) but take as our model the WW2 model. Sweep out the Chamberlains and wishy washies and let the competent ones come to the front.
His name is Boris Johnson; he was elected because he's not afraid of actually doing something.
David Edmunds
2020-03-28 17:22:55 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
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A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
Italy was not the model I was thinking of. Let the Tories stay in power (reluctantly) but take as our model the WW2 model. Sweep out the Chamberlains and wishy washies and let the competent ones come to the front.
His name is Boris Johnson; he was elected because he's not afraid of actually doing something.
But for two months he did nothing. He and his colleagues bought in to a way of thinking that was a disaster and is likely to cause thousands of excess deaths. In a sense you are correct and he was "actually doing something", he was taking us down a wrong road.

David Martin Edmunds
Roger
2020-03-28 18:32:00 UTC
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Post by David Edmunds
Post by Roger
Post by David Edmunds
Post by David Edmunds
A more resilient system is needed so that next time we are not caught with our pants down. It has to be able to cope with governments of every persuasion.
Inaction by our politicians/rulers has resulted in 8000 plus infected people and over 400 deaths.
The graphs show that we still have exponential growth in infections and deaths with at least two weeks to go before we see significant leveling off
What is it that led to this foolish and dangerous behavior? Is it some flaw in our character that makes us view information coming from certain nations less relevant, are these people really less likely to have answers? Did the fact that it was the Chinese who sequenced the DNA somehow make the data less relevant? Are we so xenophobic that we are prepared to endanger ourselves? How did we become that way?
The Koreans and the Chinese must be amazed at our ignoring their advice and inaction.
We criticise China for failing to make a visible effort for two weeks or so but almost nothing was happening here until a few days ago, including long lead time actions like making or procuring testing facilities. Two months on and we are still short of equipment and functioning testing and tracing systems.
David Martin Edmunds
Italy was not the model I was thinking of. Let the Tories stay in power (reluctantly) but take as our model the WW2 model. Sweep out the Chamberlains and wishy washies and let the competent ones come to the front.
His name is Boris Johnson; he was elected because he's not afraid of actually doing something.
But for two months he did nothing. He and his colleagues bought in to a way of thinking that was a disaster and is likely to cause thousands of excess deaths. In a sense you are correct and he was "actually doing something", he was taking us down a wrong road.
David Martin Edmunds
Actually I strongly disagree.

Last week a commons select comitee was told by the Head of the Imperial College research unit that the government had followed scientific advice from the outset.

I have also been amazed by some of the bizzare interpretations of BJ's initial speech; I can only assume they are politically motivated. The speech itself was quite clear, straightforward and honest. Is there anything he said in that speech that was incorrect? Then specify. Your sweeping statements statements appear devoid of any factual basis.


Should Johnson have invented his own strategy? The mark of a good leader is to delgate to the most aappropriate people in the right places and ensure they can do their job...not to wade in personally.

We have also heard that the NHS has been on it's maximum state of alert scince January.

The government is also doing all it can to remedy shortfalls in preparedness, such as ramping up the capability to do coronavirus tests and building respirators.

You could aregue (and I would agree) that the NHS should have a surplus capacity in order to deal with such crises. Instead the NHS has been honed down to the minimum required for day to day demand.

But that is a process that has been going on since Thatcher, including during the Blair era. I can't pin that charge on the current government.

However I WILL judge the government on the changes it makes now and after the crisis. So far I think they are responding well.
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