Discussion:
The immigration question
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Tim
2018-12-06 21:26:03 UTC
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Would anyone be against an x out(emigration) and y in(immigration)
policy? Where immigration was capped at number of emigrants plus a
certain % .
Presuming that was practical.


I do think we need to separate those totally opposed to people from
certain countries being allowed in(these are basically racists) from
those concerned about the rate of immigration irrespective of whether
people are from.

The latter may, or may not, be misguided in their fears but they are not
bad people .
patrick.hearn
2018-12-06 21:40:24 UTC
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Post by Tim
Would anyone be against an x out(emigration) and y in(immigration)
policy? Where immigration was capped at number of emigrants plus a
certain % .
Presuming that was practical.
Yes. It would be a crude tool and unrelated to any UK skills shortages or labour demands.

Brexit studies (before and after the referendum) have suggested that greater limits on skilled immigration are modelled to product worse GDP for the UK. Some would oppose it for that reason.

Some would oppose it anyway, of course.
Post by Tim
I do think we need to separate those totally opposed to people from
certain countries being allowed in(these are basically racists) from
those concerned about the rate of immigration irrespective of whether
people are from.
The latter may, or may not, be misguided in their fears but they are not
bad people .
Patrick
Tim
2018-12-06 21:47:36 UTC
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Post by patrick.hearn
Post by Tim
Would anyone be against an x out(emigration) and y in(immigration)
policy? Where immigration was capped at number of emigrants plus a
certain % .
Presuming that was practical.
Yes. It would be a crude tool and unrelated to any UK skills shortages or labour demands.
Brexit studies (before and after the referendum) have suggested that greater limits on skilled immigration are modelled to product worse GDP for the UK. Some would oppose it for that reason.
Some would oppose it anyway, of course.
Post by Tim
I do think we need to separate those totally opposed to people from
certain countries being allowed in(these are basically racists) from
those concerned about the rate of immigration irrespective of whether
people are from.
The latter may, or may not, be misguided in their fears but they are not
bad people .
Patrick
So you would need to balance numbers with getting the right mix
according to skills shortages or labour demands? That would certainly
make it far more complex.
p***@gmail.com
2018-12-06 22:41:50 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by patrick.hearn
Post by Tim
Would anyone be against an x out(emigration) and y in(immigration)
policy? Where immigration was capped at number of emigrants plus a
certain % .
Presuming that was practical.
Yes. It would be a crude tool and unrelated to any UK skills shortages or labour demands.
Brexit studies (before and after the referendum) have suggested that greater limits on skilled immigration are modelled to product worse GDP for the UK. Some would oppose it for that reason.
Some would oppose it anyway, of course.
Post by Tim
I do think we need to separate those totally opposed to people from
certain countries being allowed in(these are basically racists) from
those concerned about the rate of immigration irrespective of whether
people are from.
The latter may, or may not, be misguided in their fears but they are not
bad people .
Patrick
So you would need to balance numbers with getting the right mix
according to skills shortages or labour demands?
The question you asked was "Would anyone be against", and I've given some examples why I think some would.

That would certainly
Post by Tim
make it far more complex.
Someone recently posted the quote by H.L. Mencken: "For every complex problem, there's a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong". In my opinion what you're proposing falls into that category.

Immigration is complex https://fullfact.org/immigration/why-do-international-migrants-come-uk/ To my mind, by putting a fixed number you are trading off asylum, marriage, essential-, high- and low skilled immigration. Your suggestion was however for a variable number based on a ratio with emigration, you're then adding in a further variable. "You can't have any brain surgeons this year because not enough people have emigrated". Or "have extra Vietnamese cockle pickers because there's been an exodus of retirees to the Algarve". I think any restrictive system needs to have elements of skills shortages or labour demands, amongst other things.

It's a subject that excites a range of opinions, and others will probably express different views.

Patrick
Tim
2018-12-06 23:59:42 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Tim
Post by patrick.hearn
Post by Tim
Would anyone be against an x out(emigration) and y in(immigration)
policy? Where immigration was capped at number of emigrants plus a
certain % .
Presuming that was practical.
Yes. It would be a crude tool and unrelated to any UK skills shortages or labour demands.
Brexit studies (before and after the referendum) have suggested that greater limits on skilled immigration are modelled to product worse GDP for the UK. Some would oppose it for that reason.
Some would oppose it anyway, of course.
Post by Tim
I do think we need to separate those totally opposed to people from
certain countries being allowed in(these are basically racists) from
those concerned about the rate of immigration irrespective of whether
people are from.
The latter may, or may not, be misguided in their fears but they are not
bad people .
Patrick
So you would need to balance numbers with getting the right mix
according to skills shortages or labour demands?
The question you asked was "Would anyone be against", and I've given some examples why I think some would.
That would certainly
Post by Tim
make it far more complex.
Someone recently posted the quote by H.L. Mencken: "For every complex problem, there's a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong". In my opinion what you're proposing falls into that category.
Immigration is complex https://fullfact.org/immigration/why-do-international-migrants-come-uk/ To my mind, by putting a fixed number you are trading off asylum, marriage, essential-, high- and low skilled immigration. Your suggestion was however for a variable number based on a ratio with emigration, you're then adding in a further variable. "You can't have any brain surgeons this year because not enough people have emigrated". Or "have extra Vietnamese cockle pickers because there's been an exodus of retirees to the Algarve". I think any restrictive system needs to have elements of skills shortages or labour demands, amongst other things.
It's a subject that excites a range of opinions, and others will probably express different views.
Patrick
I was just throwing out an idea to see what people thought. I agree it's
very complex. You make good points as to why it would not be the right
way to proceed.

saracene
2018-12-06 21:52:09 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Tim
Would anyone be against an x out(emigration) and y in(immigration)
policy? Where immigration was capped at number of emigrants plus a
certain % .
Presuming that was practical.
I do think we need to separate those totally opposed to people from
certain countries being allowed in(these are basically racists) from
those concerned about the rate of immigration irrespective of whether
people are from.
The latter may, or may not, be misguided in their fears but they are not
bad people .
I am racist by your criterion. How does that make me a bad person?
saracene
2018-12-06 21:53:49 UTC
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Post by saracene
Post by Tim
Would anyone be against an x out(emigration) and y in(immigration)
policy? Where immigration was capped at number of emigrants plus a
certain % .
Presuming that was practical.
I do think we need to separate those totally opposed to people from
certain countries being allowed in(these are basically racists) from
those concerned about the rate of immigration irrespective of whether
people are from.
The latter may, or may not, be misguided in their fears but they are not
bad people .
I am racist by your criterion. How does that make me a bad person?
Racist Poem

Saxon and Norman and Dane were we,
Up to the middle of the last century
When our ethnic pool began to grow bigger
Starting with influx of paki and nigger.

But these are words you must not use
Anymore than “kikes” and “yids” of Jews.
As more and more and more came in
Racism became a terrible sin.


A line was crossed, it was no longer right
For the bbc to be hideously white

Henceforth we’re to be very mixed stew
Overlorded by the eternal Jew.
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