Discussion:
Why did the Tories allow this to happen?
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Richmond
2020-03-25 21:33:20 UTC
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/08/coronavirus-farce-dozens-planes-fly-uk-italys-quarantine-zones/

Coronavirus farce as dozens of planes fly to UK from Italy's quarantine
zones with no checks

Flights from hotspots including Milan given permission to land in
Britain despite lockdown

A decision by the Italian authorities to place 16 million people into
coronavirus quarantine descended into chaos on Sunday night as dozens of
flights from affected areas were permitted to land in Britain.
m***@btopenworld.com
2020-03-25 22:01:22 UTC
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Post by Richmond
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/08/coronavirus-farce-dozens-planes-fly-uk-italys-quarantine-zones/
Coronavirus farce as dozens of planes fly to UK from Italy's quarantine
zones with no checks
Flights from hotspots including Milan given permission to land in
Britain despite lockdown
A decision by the Italian authorities to place 16 million people into
coronavirus quarantine descended into chaos on Sunday night as dozens of
flights from affected areas were permitted to land in Britain.
British citizens holding British passports cannot be prevented from entering the UK.

Although it is recommended that those who believe themselves to show symptoms a infection by the virus are strongly recommended to self isolate there is no requirement for them to do so. We have not yet reached the stage where baton wielding policemen force people into hospitals.
Richmond
2020-03-25 22:10:15 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Richmond
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/08/coronavirus-farce-dozens-planes-fly-uk-italys-quarantine-zones/
Coronavirus farce as dozens of planes fly to UK from Italy's quarantine
zones with no checks
Flights from hotspots including Milan given permission to land in
Britain despite lockdown
A decision by the Italian authorities to place 16 million people into
coronavirus quarantine descended into chaos on Sunday night as dozens of
flights from affected areas were permitted to land in Britain.
British citizens holding British passports cannot be prevented from entering the UK.
Although it is recommended that those who believe themselves to show symptoms
a infection by the virus are strongly recommended to self isolate there is no
requirement for them to do so. We have not yet reached the stage where baton
wielding policemen force people into hospitals.
Ah, so you can put the whole country under house arrest, but you can't
stop someone getting off a plane. I see. Tory deny, Tory deflect, Tory
not responsible, Tory irresponsible.

All the Tories had better pick up the phone to the DWP now and join the
switchboard queue, because they are all going to be redundant in 5
years, and it will take them that long to get through.
m***@btopenworld.com
2020-03-25 23:11:19 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Richmond
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Richmond
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/08/coronavirus-farce-dozens-planes-fly-uk-italys-quarantine-zones/
Coronavirus farce as dozens of planes fly to UK from Italy's quarantine
zones with no checks
Flights from hotspots including Milan given permission to land in
Britain despite lockdown
A decision by the Italian authorities to place 16 million people into
coronavirus quarantine descended into chaos on Sunday night as dozens of
flights from affected areas were permitted to land in Britain.
British citizens holding British passports cannot be prevented from entering the UK.
Although it is recommended that those who believe themselves to show symptoms
a infection by the virus are strongly recommended to self isolate there is no
requirement for them to do so. We have not yet reached the stage where baton
wielding policemen force people into hospitals.
Ah, so you can put the whole country under house arrest, but you can't
stop someone getting off a plane. I see. Tory deny, Tory deflect, Tory
not responsible, Tory irresponsible.
Bu the whole country is not under house arrest. You are free to come and go as you please but are recommended to stay at home not to make unnecessary journeys etc. If you fail to meet these this reasonable advice then you will not be locked up.

If you congregate in groups and refuse to move on when requested.you may receive a spot fine

It is already an offence to engage in abusive behaviour or to obstruct a police officer in the execution of his duty.
Post by Richmond
All the Tories had better pick up the phone to the DWP now and join the
switchboard queue, because they are all going to be redundant in 5
years, and it will take them that long to get through.
You are determined to make political capital out of this national emergency aren't you?

You know now why you lost the election. People simply don't trust you or your motives. It's gong to be a long climb back for you.
Keema's Nan
2020-03-26 08:30:44 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Richmond
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Richmond
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/08/coronavirus-farce-dozens-plane
s-fly-uk-italys-quarantine-zones/
Coronavirus farce as dozens of planes fly to UK from Italy's quarantine
zones with no checks
Flights from hotspots including Milan given permission to land in
Britain despite lockdown
A decision by the Italian authorities to place 16 million people into
coronavirus quarantine descended into chaos on Sunday night as dozens of
flights from affected areas were permitted to land in Britain.
British citizens holding British passports cannot be prevented from
entering the UK.
Although it is recommended that those who believe themselves to show symptoms
a infection by the virus are strongly recommended to self isolate there is no
requirement for them to do so. We have not yet reached the stage where baton
wielding policemen force people into hospitals.
Ah, so you can put the whole country under house arrest, but you can't
stop someone getting off a plane. I see. Tory deny, Tory deflect, Tory
not responsible, Tory irresponsible.
Bu the whole country is not under house arrest. You are free to come and go
as you please
Wrong.

From my local Facebook News page

Police Hour....

"Here is a heads up.

New rules mean you should be carrying out your exercise from Home.

Driving to a location to walk, run or cycle is classed as unnecessary travel.

Law is now in place to issue £30 fines..."
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
but are recommended to stay at home not to make unnecessary
journeys etc. If you fail to meet these this reasonable advice then you will
not be locked up.
If you congregate in groups and refuse to move on when requested.you may
receive a spot fine
It is already an offence to engage in abusive behaviour or to obstruct a
police officer in the execution of his duty.
Post by Richmond
All the Tories had better pick up the phone to the DWP now and join the
switchboard queue, because they are all going to be redundant in 5
years, and it will take them that long to get through.
You are determined to make political capital out of this national emergency aren't you?
Most Tories are determined to make financial capital out of this national
emergency.

But, at least now we can see exactly who they are, and save the information
for later.
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
You know now why you lost the election. People simply don't trust you or your
motives. It's gong to be a long climb back for you.
Farmer Giles
2020-03-26 16:55:50 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Richmond
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Richmond
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/08/coronavirus-farce-dozens-plane
s-fly-uk-italys-quarantine-zones/
Coronavirus farce as dozens of planes fly to UK from Italy's quarantine
zones with no checks
Flights from hotspots including Milan given permission to land in
Britain despite lockdown
A decision by the Italian authorities to place 16 million people into
coronavirus quarantine descended into chaos on Sunday night as dozens of
flights from affected areas were permitted to land in Britain.
British citizens holding British passports cannot be prevented from entering the UK.
Although it is recommended that those who believe themselves to show symptoms
a infection by the virus are strongly recommended to self isolate there is no
requirement for them to do so. We have not yet reached the stage where baton
wielding policemen force people into hospitals.
Ah, so you can put the whole country under house arrest, but you can't
stop someone getting off a plane. I see. Tory deny, Tory deflect, Tory
not responsible, Tory irresponsible.
Bu the whole country is not under house arrest. You are free to come and go
as you please
Wrong.
From my local Facebook News page
Police Hour....
"Here is a heads up.
New rules mean you should be carrying out your exercise from Home.
Driving to a location to walk, run or cycle is classed as unnecessary travel.
Law is now in place to issue £30 fines..."
You make allowances, the rules haven't yet had time to penetrate the
thickest of skulls.
Richmond
2020-03-26 10:26:13 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
You are determined to make political capital out of this national emergency aren't you?
This is a political newsgroup and the Tories have never hesitated to do
exactly that. The Tories thrive on pointing the finger of blame away
from themselves.
Roger
2020-03-26 11:15:58 UTC
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Post by Richmond
This is a political newsgroup and the Tories have never hesitated to do
exactly that. The Tories thrive on pointing the finger of blame away
from themselves.
Hmm...I'm curious...You mean there are politicians somewhere who are NOT like this?
Pancho
2020-03-26 13:38:30 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by Richmond
This is a political newsgroup and the Tories have never hesitated to do
exactly that. The Tories thrive on pointing the finger of blame away
from themselves.
Hmm...I'm curious...You mean there are politicians somewhere who are NOT like this?
Sure, amongst the ones who don't get selected/elected.
The Iceberg
2020-03-26 11:58:14 UTC
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Post by Richmond
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
You are determined to make political capital out of this national emergency aren't you?
This is a political newsgroup and the Tories have never hesitated to do
exactly that. The Tories thrive on pointing the finger of blame away
from themselves.
Richmond, amazing to try to exploit a tragedy like this just for your own political gain, so why are you such a loyal Labour lapdog? why is the party your religion?
Keema's Nan
2020-03-26 12:32:11 UTC
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Post by The Iceberg
Post by Richmond
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
You are determined to make political capital out of this national
emergency aren't you?
This is a political newsgroup and the Tories have never hesitated to do
exactly that. The Tories thrive on pointing the finger of blame away
from themselves.
Richmond, amazing to try to exploit a tragedy like this just for your own
political gain, so why are you such a loyal Labour lapdog? why is the party
your religion?
Is that worse than people using the virus for financial gain?

Dr Mark Ali, 56, brought in huge sums off Britons desperate to know if they
have been infected with coronavirus, which has spread to more than 5,000
people across the country and killed 240. The cardiologist sold 6,664
Covid-19 testing kits through his company, Private Harley Street Clinic
Limited, in less than a week, The Sunday Times reports. The firm is not based
in the London medical street, but rather from his flat in north London.

He reportedly charged £375 each per kit – more than three times what the
supplier charges for the equipment.
In less than a week Dr Ali’s company brought in £2.5m, leaving him with an
overall profit of £1.7m.

Try convincing me this chap isn’t a Tory...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1258641/coronavirus-uk-testing-kits-doctor-
London-profits-patients-covid-19-matt-hancock
MM
2020-03-29 16:29:48 UTC
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Post by Richmond
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
You are determined to make political capital out of this national emergency aren't you?
This is a political newsgroup and the Tories have never hesitated to do
exactly that. The Tories thrive on pointing the finger of blame away
from themselves.
Yes, until recently the Tories were still referring to the previous
Labour Government as the source of all ills. The fact that the Tories
have now been in power for ten years seems to have escaped them. But
if reminded of that fact, they quickly point out that the Liberal
Democrats were involved as well.

MM
Roger
2020-03-29 21:05:00 UTC
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Post by MM
Yes, until recently the Tories were still referring to the previous
Labour Government as the source of all ills. The fact that the Tories
have now been in power for ten years seems to have escaped them. But
if reminded of that fact, they quickly point out that the Liberal
Democrats were involved as well.
Really? When? Who?
MM
2020-03-31 09:44:34 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by MM
Yes, until recently the Tories were still referring to the previous
Labour Government as the source of all ills. The fact that the Tories
have now been in power for ten years seems to have escaped them. But
if reminded of that fact, they quickly point out that the Liberal
Democrats were involved as well.
Really? When? Who?
Whoosh!

MM
Roger
2020-03-31 10:30:12 UTC
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Post by MM
Whoosh!
MM
I'm disollusioned with you. I was expecting you to quote a stream of tweets where Boris Johnson was blaming all the problems of his govenment on a past labour government. C'mon, there must be one somewhere.....
m***@btopenworld.com
2020-03-31 21:43:45 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by MM
Whoosh!
MM
I'm disollusioned with you. I was expecting you to quote a stream of tweets where Boris Johnson was blaming all the problems of his govenment on a past labour government. C'mon, there must be one somewhere.....
Even within the Labour party there are 3 schools of thought regarding Labours disastrous showing in the election:

1. the Corbyn effect - He does not come across as a potential PM even to Labour party members.

2. Failure to put the lid on the Jewish question.

3. An ambiguous position on Brexit upon which he party is hopelessly split.

I liked Johnsons reply in Corbyn's last PMQ Still maintaining that he had been proved right he assured the house that he would still be campaigning from the floor of the house. Johnson "I'm sure your successor will be delighted to hear that!"

Silly old sod!

You look at the government front bench and what do you see? Johnson, Gove. Sunack, Barclay. Rabb, All fresh and confident

Look across to the Labour benches and what do you see? Corbyn, Mcdonell; Long- Bailey Abbot Sturmer Tired defeated and old haf.
Roger
2020-03-26 10:06:42 UTC
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Post by Richmond
Ah, so you can put the whole country under house arrest, but you can't
stop someone getting off a plane.
That's just about it. Allthough you can oblige the person getting off the plane to isolate. This is the policy being operated throughout the world.
Post by Richmond
I see. Tory deny, Tory deflect, Tory
not responsible, Tory irresponsible.
You would see that in anything they did. Others reading this post just see an idiot.
The Iceberg
2020-03-26 11:59:29 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by Richmond
Ah, so you can put the whole country under house arrest, but you can't
stop someone getting off a plane.
That's just about it. Allthough you can oblige the person getting off the plane to isolate. This is the policy being operated throughout the world.
Post by Richmond
I see. Tory deny, Tory deflect, Tory
not responsible, Tory irresponsible.
You would see that in anything they did. Others reading this post just see an idiot.
you can see a very loyal lapdog of the Labour party called Richmond! LOL
m***@btopenworld.com
2020-03-26 18:36:07 UTC
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Post by Richmond
Ah, so you can put the whole country under house arrest, but you can't
stop someone getting off a plane.
That's just about it. Although you can oblige the person getting off the plane to isolate. This is the policy being operated throughout the world.
I am talking of UK law.

There is no UK law which requires you or anyone else to submit to medical examination or treatment with the exception off the Mental Health Act which does make provision for individuals considered a danger either to themselves or any member of the public to be detained, against their will, for the purposes of treatment in a mental hospital.

The section order, as it known is drawn up against the order of a court or the signatures of two independent doctors. It is subject to regular review and no health authority may keep any section order in force unless it can show that the interests of the patient will best served through the continuance of the order

You may recall the 'rescue flight' form Wutan early in the crisis. The returnees were landed a Brize Norton (an RAF airfield) and bussed to an evacuated nurses home in Cubbria where they were billited for 14 days. *They were never detained* and were free to leave the party at any point they wished. I don't recall whether any actually did.

Now for the question of the aircraft.

Any aircraft that touches down on any airport starts to incur expense for its operator. This considerable expenditure will continue until such time as its wheels leave the ground again. This means that whenever an operator for whatever reason decides to suspend any service his first priority is to recover the aircraft that carried in the last inward passengers and to return it to the airfield where he has a contract for it to be stored at a more competitive rate. He simply cannot afford to leave aircraft parked on the aprons of foreign airfields Such aircraft therefy seats ore leave their airfields usually empty and often at night. This is just one reason why empty aircraft fly the skys. Others include filling gaps in schedules. replacing defective aircraft, creating flexibility and so on.

There is no real reason as to why these aircraft should be empty of course and operators will use them for carrying freight, moving crews around and, if an agent can be found to buy seats at a heavily discounted rate. then they could be chartered.

When the OP said that 'there are no international flights' he neglected to say *scheduled* international flights. There is nothing to stop any travel agent from chartering an aircraft filling it with passengers and flying them to wherever though in this case the Italian airports are closed but only to departing Italians.
Richmond
2020-03-26 18:55:09 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Richmond
Ah, so you can put the whole country under house arrest, but you can't
stop someone getting off a plane.
That's just about it. Although you can oblige the person getting off the
plane to isolate. This is the policy being operated throughout the world.
I am talking of UK law.
I don't know why you are bothering to quote the law when the government
can, does, has changed the law in an emergency.
Keema's Nan
2020-03-26 08:24:50 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Richmond
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/08/coronavirus-farce-dozens-planes-
fly-uk-italys-quarantine-zones/
Coronavirus farce as dozens of planes fly to UK from Italy's quarantine
zones with no checks
Flights from hotspots including Milan given permission to land in
Britain despite lockdown
A decision by the Italian authorities to place 16 million people into
coronavirus quarantine descended into chaos on Sunday night as dozens of
flights from affected areas were permitted to land in Britain.
British citizens holding British passports cannot be prevented from entering the UK.
How do they get here, if there are no international flights, no trains and no
ferries operating?
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Although it is recommended that those who believe themselves to show symptoms
a infection by the virus are strongly recommended to self isolate there is no
requirement for them to do so. We have not yet reached the stage where baton
wielding policemen force people into hospitals.
Have you been out infecting people already?
Roger
2020-03-26 10:19:26 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
How do they get here, if there are no international flights, no trains and no
ferries operating?
https://www.flightradar24.com/45.39,13.73/5

A flight can leave the UK, go and pick up people and return them to the UK, where they then must isolate.

Note that in line with the rest of the world, containment has been abandoned in favour of delay, which means minimizing contact rather than excluding all contact.
Pamela
2020-03-26 10:25:25 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
How do they get here, if there are no international flights, no trains
and no ferries operating?
https://www.flightradar24.com/45.39,13.73/5
A flight can leave the UK, go and pick up people and return them to the
UK, where they then must isolate.
Note that in line with the rest of the world, containment has been
abandoned in favour of delay, which means minimizing contact rather than
excluding all contact.
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was the
other way around.

The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says on page 1 that
"suppression" (containment) is preferred to "mitigation" (delay).

See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
Roger
2020-03-26 11:10:09 UTC
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Post by Pamela
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was the
other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.

Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
Post by Pamela
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says on page 1 that
"suppression" (containment) is preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and containment was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his speech it may have been possible to contain if the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.

But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as there was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be maintained in small zones....people do have to maintain food and services atc....not to mention the medical care itself.

Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would have had to maintain completely isolated from any country were the virues was ongoing. At the time of his speech there were allready uncontrolled outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and quite a few other places; all of whom had passed to a delay phase and therefore containment would have required 100% isolation from these countries for perhaps a year.
Post by Pamela
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Keema's Nan
2020-03-26 11:17:03 UTC
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Post by Roger
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was the
other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Was it compulsory? I didn’t realise.

I suppose it is one way to boost sycophants' self confidence - ‘we listened
to Boris’ speech therefore we are not idiots’.
Post by Roger
Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
How can we when the MSM is full of overhyped virus stuff?
Post by Roger
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says on page 1 that
"suppression" (containment) is preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is.
I bet the clever folk at Imperial are so relieved you agree with them.
Post by Roger
However it appears to spread in mysterious ways
Are you saying there is something in this world that you *don’t* know the
answer to?
Post by Roger
and containment was
simply not working. At the time BJ gave his speech it may have been possible
to contain if the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as there was no
trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be maintained in small
zones....people do have to maintain food and services atc....not to mention
the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would have had to
maintain completely isolated from any country were the virues was ongoing. At
the time of his speech there were allready uncontrolled outbreaks in Italy,
Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and quite a few other places; all of whom had
passed to a delay phase and therefore containment would have required 100%
isolation from these countries for perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
The Iceberg
2020-03-26 12:16:50 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was the
other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Was it compulsory? I didn’t realise.
I suppose it is one way to boost sycophants' self confidence - ‘we listened
to Boris’ speech therefore we are not idiots’.
no cos it really wasn't rocket science! didn't take a Cambridge degree to understand! he said pls don't have any unnecessary social gatherings, really wasn't that difficult instruction! personally play lot of sports + socialise lots BUT restricted everything after that, as it was obviously serious situation and decent thing to do. Also France closed all shops, that was a major pointer, duh.
Keema's Nan
2020-03-26 13:39:43 UTC
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Permalink
Post by The Iceberg
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was the
other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Was it compulsory? I didn’t realise.
I suppose it is one way to boost sycophants' self confidence - ‘we listened
to Boris’ speech therefore we are not idiots’.
no cos it really wasn't rocket science!
What wasn’t?
Post by The Iceberg
didn't take a Cambridge degree to
understand! he said pls don't have any unnecessary social gatherings,
Where did anyone say they have had social gatherings after Boris’ speech.
Post by The Iceberg
really
wasn't that difficult instruction!
Is this your patronising attempt at virtue signalling?
Post by The Iceberg
personally play lot of sports + socialise
lots BUT restricted everything after that, as it was obviously serious
situation and decent thing to do. Also France closed all shops, that was a
major pointer, duh.
I’m not in France, and don’t give a fuck what they do, or don’t do.

I gather that the Boris speech was a signal to all the sanctimonious self
righteous twats (now they have a garage full of groceries and bog rolls) to
lecture the rest of us on how we must behave, what we must watch on TV, etc.
The Iceberg
2020-03-27 13:37:43 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Iceberg
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was the
other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Was it compulsory? I didn’t realise.
I suppose it is one way to boost sycophants' self confidence - ‘we listened
to Boris’ speech therefore we are not idiots’.
no cos it really wasn't rocket science!
What wasn’t?
Post by The Iceberg
didn't take a Cambridge degree to
understand! he said pls don't have any unnecessary social gatherings,
Where did anyone say they have had social gatherings after Boris’ speech.
Post by The Iceberg
really
wasn't that difficult instruction!
Is this your patronising attempt at virtue signalling?
no but if you found it that way, then good, it means you can't follow simple obvious instructions and so deserve more and more of this kind of thing.
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by The Iceberg
personally play lot of sports + socialise
lots BUT restricted everything after that, as it was obviously serious
situation and decent thing to do. Also France closed all shops, that was a
major pointer, duh.
I’m not in France, and don’t give a fuck what they do, or don’t do.
just ignorant of the rest of the world then.
Post by Keema's Nan
I gather that the Boris speech was a signal to all the sanctimonious self
righteous twats (now they have a garage full of groceries and bog rolls) to
lecture the rest of us on how we must behave, what we must watch on TV, etc.
oh dear quit being so overly dramatic, it was just him telling regular people not to socialise, if you're so dumb and self-centred you can't follow that simple basic instruction, you deserve to be locked down to the max and arrested and put in prison if you don't.
Pamela
2020-03-26 11:58:50 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was
the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
Post by Pamela
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says on page 1
that "suppression" (containment) is preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and containment
was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his speech it may have been
possible to contain if the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as there was
no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be maintained in small
zones....people do have to maintain food and services atc....not to
mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would have had
to maintain completely isolated from any country were the virues was
ongoing. At the time of his speech there were allready uncontrolled
outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and quite a few other
places; all of whom had passed to a delay phase and therefore
containment would have required 100% isolation from these countries for
perhaps a year.
Post by Pamela
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are unattainable
but nevertheless your link shows the change from practical "suppression"
(containment) in preference to "mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial
misplaced objective of herd immunity.

The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths, has been
highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy. The first things my
friends in south Lombardy say on the phone is what an idiot Boris has
been. I'm surprised you seem to have missed it. You may have also missed
recent Boris's volte face.

Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths then
suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have shown.
Roger
2020-03-26 12:24:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was
the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
Post by Pamela
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says on page 1
that "suppression" (containment) is preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and containment
was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his speech it may have been
possible to contain if the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as there was
no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be maintained in small
zones....people do have to maintain food and services atc....not to
mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would have had
to maintain completely isolated from any country were the virues was
ongoing. At the time of his speech there were allready uncontrolled
outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and quite a few other
places; all of whom had passed to a delay phase and therefore
containment would have required 100% isolation from these countries for
perhaps a year.
Post by Pamela
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are unattainable
but nevertheless your link shows the change from practical "suppression"
(containment) in preference to "mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial
misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths, has been
highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy. The first things my
friends in south Lombardy say on the phone is what an idiot Boris has
been. I'm surprised you seem to have missed it. You may have also missed
recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths then
suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.

There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to make assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived conclusions. And this is what was reported in Italy; the speech was for too long for an Italian to listent to. That is probably why the Italian government didn't even bother trying; they said pretty much nothing about the strategy they just layed down the law.

In fact to summarise how BJ's speech was commonly reported in Italy:

1) The UK has given up on containment.

2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants to get herd immunity.

3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.


Like I said, go and listen to the speech. Decide the truth for yourself ;-)


Keema's Nan
2020-03-26 13:42:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was
the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says on page 1
that "suppression" (containment) is preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and containment
was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his speech it may have been
possible to contain if the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as there was
no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be maintained in small
zones....people do have to maintain food and services atc....not to
mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would have had
to maintain completely isolated from any country were the virues was
ongoing. At the time of his speech there were allready uncontrolled
outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and quite a few other
places; all of whom had passed to a delay phase and therefore
containment would have required 100% isolation from these countries for
perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are unattainable
but nevertheless your link shows the change from practical "suppression"
(containment) in preference to "mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial
misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths, has been
highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy. The first things my
friends in south Lombardy say on the phone is what an idiot Boris has
been. I'm surprised you seem to have missed it. You may have also missed
recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths then
suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to make assumptions
and derive their own politcally contrived conclusions. And this is what was
reported in Italy; the speech was for too long for an Italian to listent to.
That is probably why the Italian government didn't even bother trying; they
said pretty much nothing about the strategy they just layed down the law.
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants to get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Post by Roger
Decide the truth for yourself ;-)
http://youtu.be/A0chs7bVQ8Y
Pamela
2020-03-26 14:25:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it
was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons
speech. Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says on
page 1 that "suppression" (containment) is preferred to
"mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and
containment was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his speech
it may have been possible to contain if the UK had been on
immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as
there was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be
maintained in small zones....people do have to maintain food and
services atc....not to mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would have
had to maintain completely isolated from any country were the
virues was ongoing. At the time of his speech there were allready
uncontrolled outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and
quite a few other places; all of whom had passed to a delay phase
and therefore containment would have required 100% isolation from
these countries for perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are
unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the change from
practical "suppression" (containment) in preference to "mitigation"
(delay) with Boris's initial misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths, has been
highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy. The first things
my friends in south Lombardy say on the phone is what an idiot Boris
has been. I'm surprised you seem to have missed it. You may have also
missed recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths then
suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime Minster's
speeches.
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to make
assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived conclusions. And
this is what was reported in Italy; the speech was for too long for an
Italian to listent to. That is probably why the Italian government
didn't even bother trying; they said pretty much nothing about the
strategy they just layed down the law.
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants to get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood Boris's speech and
Roger, over in italy, has the magic understanding.
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Decide the truth for yourself ;-)
http://youtu.be/A0chs7bVQ8Y
Keema's Nan
2020-03-26 14:30:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it
was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons
speech. Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says on
page 1 that "suppression" (containment) is preferred to
"mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and
containment was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his speech
it may have been possible to contain if the UK had been on
immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as
there was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be
maintained in small zones....people do have to maintain food and
services atc....not to mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would have
had to maintain completely isolated from any country were the
virues was ongoing. At the time of his speech there were allready
uncontrolled outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and
quite a few other places; all of whom had passed to a delay phase
and therefore containment would have required 100% isolation from
these countries for perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are
unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the change from
practical "suppression" (containment) in preference to "mitigation"
(delay) with Boris's initial misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths, has been
highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy. The first things
my friends in south Lombardy say on the phone is what an idiot Boris
has been. I'm surprised you seem to have missed it. You may have also
missed recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths then
suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime Minster's
speeches.
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to make
assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived conclusions. And
this is what was reported in Italy; the speech was for too long for an
Italian to listent to. That is probably why the Italian government
didn't even bother trying; they said pretty much nothing about the
strategy they just layed down the law.
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants to get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood Boris's speech and
Roger, over in italy, has the magic understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could muster.
Post by Pamela
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Decide the truth for yourself ;-)
http://youtu.be/A0chs7bVQ8Y
Pamela
2020-03-26 15:19:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 26 Mar 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Roger wrote (in
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought
it was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons
speech. Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says
on page 1 that "suppression" (containment) is preferred to
"mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and
containment was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his
speech it may have been possible to contain if the UK had been
on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as
there was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be
maintained in small zones....people do have to maintain food
and services atc....not to mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would
have had to maintain completely isolated from any country were
the virues was ongoing. At the time of his speech there were
allready uncontrolled outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany,
France, NY/NJ and quite a few other places; all of whom had
passed to a delay phase and therefore containment would have
required 100% isolation from these countries for perhaps a
year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are
unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the change from
practical "suppression" (containment) in preference to
"mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial misplaced objective of
herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths, has
been highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy. The
first things my friends in south Lombardy say on the phone is
what an idiot Boris has been. I'm surprised you seem to have
missed it. You may have also missed recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths
then suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have
shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime Minster's
speeches.
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to make
assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived conclusions.
And this is what was reported in Italy; the speech was for too long
for an Italian to listent to. That is probably why the Italian
government didn't even bother trying; they said pretty much nothing
about the strategy they just layed down the law.
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants to get
herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood Boris's
speech and Roger, over in italy, has the magic understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could muster.
Many of Roger's posts are so surreal that I sometimes wonder if he
actually does believe the rot he writes. I do my best to tell him
he's an idiot in as polite a way as possible.

I recall Roger saying recently how the middle of Po Valley has winter
temperatures going down to an incredible -20 degrees. It's too incredible
for me and I don't believe it for one moment. Roger struggled to offer any
proof when I asked.

See here. http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158523572200

He's also talked about how dry it is in the same area but it's actually very
humid, which is one the reason much of the Italian knitwear industry is
located there as humidity from the Po river prevents yarn breakages in days
before air conditioning.
Roger
2020-03-26 19:17:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Roger wrote (in
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought
it was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons
speech. Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says
on page 1 that "suppression" (containment) is preferred to
"mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and
containment was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his
speech it may have been possible to contain if the UK had been
on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as
there was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be
maintained in small zones....people do have to maintain food
and services atc....not to mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would
have had to maintain completely isolated from any country were
the virues was ongoing. At the time of his speech there were
allready uncontrolled outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany,
France, NY/NJ and quite a few other places; all of whom had
passed to a delay phase and therefore containment would have
required 100% isolation from these countries for perhaps a
year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are
unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the change from
practical "suppression" (containment) in preference to
"mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial misplaced objective of
herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths, has
been highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy. The
first things my friends in south Lombardy say on the phone is
what an idiot Boris has been. I'm surprised you seem to have
missed it. You may have also missed recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths
then suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have
shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime Minster's
speeches.
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to make
assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived conclusions.
And this is what was reported in Italy; the speech was for too long
for an Italian to listent to. That is probably why the Italian
government didn't even bother trying; they said pretty much nothing
about the strategy they just layed down the law.
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants to get
herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood Boris's
speech and Roger, over in italy, has the magic understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could muster.
Many of Roger's posts are so surreal that I sometimes wonder if he
actually does believe the rot he writes. I do my best to tell him
he's an idiot in as polite a way as possible.
I recall Roger saying recently how the middle of Po Valley has winter
temperatures going down to an incredible -20 degrees. It's too incredible
for me and I don't believe it for one moment. Roger struggled to offer any
proof when I asked.
See here. http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158523572200
He's also talked about how dry it is in the same area but it's actually very
humid, which is one the reason much of the Italian knitwear industry is
located there as humidity from the Po river prevents yarn breakages in days
before air conditioning.
Perhaps the problem is that you just seem to look at the odd word. For example, I reffered to 'cold and dry', which is specific condition that is sometimes encountered when air is being blown in from the Russian Steppes (which happens as Atlantic depressions leave the Meditteranean area).

It happens mostly around FEB/March.

And yes, -20 is a bit low for Lombardy where record lows stop around -18 (I live in Piedmonte, Turins record is -21.8 ).

Bergamo, at the centre of the Covid-19 outbreak, has weather info on it's wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo

But please, don't let facts get in the way of your posts ;-)
Pamela
2020-03-27 09:15:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Roger wrote (in
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 11:25:35 AM UTC+1, Pamela
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I
thought it was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech. Or take any notice of what is happening
around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy,
says on page 1 that "suppression" (containment) is
preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and
containment was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his
speech it may have been possible to contain if the UK had
been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time
as there was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only
be maintained in small zones....people do have to maintain
food and services atc....not to mention the medical care
itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it
would have had to maintain completely isolated from any
country were the virues was ongoing. At the time of his
speech there were allready uncontrolled outbreaks in Italy,
Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and quite a few other places;
all of whom had passed to a delay phase and therefore
containment would have required 100% isolation from these
countries for perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are
unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the change from
practical "suppression" (containment) in preference to
"mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial misplaced objective
of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths,
has been highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy.
The first things my friends in south Lombardy say on the phone
is what an idiot Boris has been. I'm surprised you seem to
have missed it. You may have also missed recent Boris's volte
face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths
then suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have
shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime Minster's
speeches.
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to make
assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived
conclusions. And this is what was reported in Italy; the speech
was for too long for an Italian to listent to. That is probably
why the Italian government didn't even bother trying; they said
pretty much nothing about the strategy they just layed down the
law.
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants to
get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood Boris's
speech and Roger, over in italy, has the magic understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could muster.
Many of Roger's posts are so surreal that I sometimes wonder if he
actually does believe the rot he writes. I do my best to tell him he's
an idiot in as polite a way as possible.
I recall Roger saying recently how the middle of Po Valley has winter
temperatures going down to an incredible -20 degrees. It's too
incredible for me and I don't believe it for one moment. Roger
struggled to offer any proof when I asked.
See here. http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158523572200
He's also talked about how dry it is in the same area but it's actually
very humid, which is one the reason much of the Italian knitwear
industry is located there as humidity from the Po river prevents yarn
breakages in days before air conditioning.
Perhaps the problem is that you just seem to look at the odd word. For
example, I reffered to 'cold and dry', which is specific condition that
is sometimes encountered when air is being blown in from the Russian
Steppes (which happens as Atlantic depressions leave the Meditteranean
area).
It happens mostly around FEB/March.
And yes, -20 is a bit low for Lombardy where record lows stop around -18
(I live in Piedmonte, Turins record is -21.8 ).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
But please, don't let facts get in the way of your posts ;-)
Bergamo? Are you saying it's in the Po valley? A lovely town but it's
closer to being alpine.
Roger
2020-03-27 13:21:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Roger wrote (in
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 11:25:35 AM UTC+1, Pamela
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I
thought it was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech. Or take any notice of what is happening
around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy,
says on page 1 that "suppression" (containment) is
preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and
containment was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his
speech it may have been possible to contain if the UK had
been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time
as there was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only
be maintained in small zones....people do have to maintain
food and services atc....not to mention the medical care
itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it
would have had to maintain completely isolated from any
country were the virues was ongoing. At the time of his
speech there were allready uncontrolled outbreaks in Italy,
Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and quite a few other places;
all of whom had passed to a delay phase and therefore
containment would have required 100% isolation from these
countries for perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are
unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the change from
practical "suppression" (containment) in preference to
"mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial misplaced objective
of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths,
has been highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy.
The first things my friends in south Lombardy say on the phone
is what an idiot Boris has been. I'm surprised you seem to
have missed it. You may have also missed recent Boris's volte
face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths
then suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have
shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime Minster's
speeches.
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to make
assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived
conclusions. And this is what was reported in Italy; the speech
was for too long for an Italian to listent to. That is probably
why the Italian government didn't even bother trying; they said
pretty much nothing about the strategy they just layed down the
law.
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants to
get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood Boris's
speech and Roger, over in italy, has the magic understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could muster.
Many of Roger's posts are so surreal that I sometimes wonder if he
actually does believe the rot he writes. I do my best to tell him he's
an idiot in as polite a way as possible.
I recall Roger saying recently how the middle of Po Valley has winter
temperatures going down to an incredible -20 degrees. It's too
incredible for me and I don't believe it for one moment. Roger
struggled to offer any proof when I asked.
See here. http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158523572200
He's also talked about how dry it is in the same area but it's actually
very humid, which is one the reason much of the Italian knitwear
industry is located there as humidity from the Po river prevents yarn
breakages in days before air conditioning.
Perhaps the problem is that you just seem to look at the odd word. For
example, I reffered to 'cold and dry', which is specific condition that
is sometimes encountered when air is being blown in from the Russian
Steppes (which happens as Atlantic depressions leave the Meditteranean
area).
It happens mostly around FEB/March.
And yes, -20 is a bit low for Lombardy where record lows stop around -18
(I live in Piedmonte, Turins record is -21.8 ).
Bergamo, at the centre of the Covid-19 outbreak, has weather info on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
But please, don't let facts get in the way of your posts ;-)
Bergamo? Are you saying it's in the Po valley? A lovely town but it's
closer to being alpine.
The ancient fortified city of Bergamo is on a hill that overlooks the Po valley. The modern city (including Orio al Serio airport where the weather data comes from) is down on the valley floor, 238M above sea level.

This is clearly visible on the photo on the webpage:

Loading Image...


Alpine Communes are considered to be those that are more than 1200M above sea level.
Pamela
2020-03-27 16:15:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Roger wrote (in
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 11:25:35 AM UTC+1, Pamela
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I
thought it was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech. Or take any notice of what is happening
around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy,
says on page 1 that "suppression" (containment) is
preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways
and containment was simply not working. At the time BJ
gave his speech it may have been possible to contain if
the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such
time as there was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation
can only be maintained in small zones....people do have
to maintain food and services atc....not to mention the
medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it
would have had to maintain completely isolated from any
country were the virues was ongoing. At the time of his
speech there were allready uncontrolled outbreaks in
Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and quite a few
other places; all of whom had passed to a delay phase and
therefore containment would have required 100% isolation
from these countries for perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment"
are unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the
change from practical "suppression" (containment) in
preference to "mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial
misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths,
has been highly critical of Boris's inept original
strategy. The first things my friends in south Lombardy say
on the phone is what an idiot Boris has been. I'm surprised
you seem to have missed it. You may have also missed recent
Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of
deaths then suppression is the way out as China and South
Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime
Minster's speeches.
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to
make assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived
conclusions. And this is what was reported in Italy; the
speech was for too long for an Italian to listent to. That is
probably why the Italian government didn't even bother
trying; they said pretty much nothing about the strategy they
just layed down the law.
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants
to get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood Boris's
speech and Roger, over in italy, has the magic understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could muster.
Many of Roger's posts are so surreal that I sometimes wonder if he
actually does believe the rot he writes. I do my best to tell him
he's an idiot in as polite a way as possible.
I recall Roger saying recently how the middle of Po Valley has
winter temperatures going down to an incredible -20 degrees. It's
too incredible for me and I don't believe it for one moment. Roger
struggled to offer any proof when I asked.
See here. http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158523572200
He's also talked about how dry it is in the same area but it's
actually very humid, which is one the reason much of the Italian
knitwear industry is located there as humidity from the Po river
prevents yarn breakages in days before air conditioning.
Perhaps the problem is that you just seem to look at the odd word.
For example, I reffered to 'cold and dry', which is specific
condition that is sometimes encountered when air is being blown in
from the Russian Steppes (which happens as Atlantic depressions leave
the Meditteranean area).
It happens mostly around FEB/March.
And yes, -20 is a bit low for Lombardy where record lows stop around
-18 (I live in Piedmonte, Turins record is -21.8 ).
Bergamo, at the centre of the Covid-19 outbreak, has weather info on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
But please, don't let facts get in the way of your posts ;-)
Bergamo? Are you saying it's in the Po valley? A lovely town but it's
closer to being alpine.
The ancient fortified city of Bergamo is on a hill that overlooks the Po
valley. The modern city (including Orio al Serio airport where the
weather data comes from) is down on the valley floor, 238M above sea
level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo#/media/File:Sunrise_at_
Bergamo_old_town,_Lombardy,_Italy.jpg
Alpine Communes are considered to be those that are more than 1200M above sea level.
Bergamo is not in the Po valley. Wikipedia acknowledges Bergo's location on
the edge of the alpine region.

"Bergamo ... is a city in the alpine Lombardy region of northern Italy"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
Roger
2020-03-28 01:18:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Roger wrote (in
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 11:25:35 AM UTC+1, Pamela
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I
thought it was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech. Or take any notice of what is happening
around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy,
says on page 1 that "suppression" (containment) is
preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways
and containment was simply not working. At the time BJ
gave his speech it may have been possible to contain if
the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such
time as there was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation
can only be maintained in small zones....people do have
to maintain food and services atc....not to mention the
medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it
would have had to maintain completely isolated from any
country were the virues was ongoing. At the time of his
speech there were allready uncontrolled outbreaks in
Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and quite a few
other places; all of whom had passed to a delay phase and
therefore containment would have required 100% isolation
from these countries for perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment"
are unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the
change from practical "suppression" (containment) in
preference to "mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial
misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths,
has been highly critical of Boris's inept original
strategy. The first things my friends in south Lombardy say
on the phone is what an idiot Boris has been. I'm surprised
you seem to have missed it. You may have also missed recent
Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of
deaths then suppression is the way out as China and South
Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime
Minster's speeches.
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to
make assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived
conclusions. And this is what was reported in Italy; the
speech was for too long for an Italian to listent to. That is
probably why the Italian government didn't even bother
trying; they said pretty much nothing about the strategy they
just layed down the law.
In fact to summarise how BJ's speech was commonly reported in
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants
to get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood Boris's
speech and Roger, over in italy, has the magic understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could muster.
Many of Roger's posts are so surreal that I sometimes wonder if he
actually does believe the rot he writes. I do my best to tell him
he's an idiot in as polite a way as possible.
I recall Roger saying recently how the middle of Po Valley has
winter temperatures going down to an incredible -20 degrees. It's
too incredible for me and I don't believe it for one moment. Roger
struggled to offer any proof when I asked.
See here. http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158523572200
He's also talked about how dry it is in the same area but it's
actually very humid, which is one the reason much of the Italian
knitwear industry is located there as humidity from the Po river
prevents yarn breakages in days before air conditioning.
Perhaps the problem is that you just seem to look at the odd word.
For example, I reffered to 'cold and dry', which is specific
condition that is sometimes encountered when air is being blown in
from the Russian Steppes (which happens as Atlantic depressions leave
the Meditteranean area).
It happens mostly around FEB/March.
And yes, -20 is a bit low for Lombardy where record lows stop around
-18 (I live in Piedmonte, Turins record is -21.8 ).
Bergamo, at the centre of the Covid-19 outbreak, has weather info on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
But please, don't let facts get in the way of your posts ;-)
Bergamo? Are you saying it's in the Po valley? A lovely town but it's
closer to being alpine.
The ancient fortified city of Bergamo is on a hill that overlooks the Po
valley. The modern city (including Orio al Serio airport where the
weather data comes from) is down on the valley floor, 238M above sea
level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo#/media/File:Sunrise_at_
Bergamo_old_town,_Lombardy,_Italy.jpg
Alpine Communes are considered to be those that are more than 1200M above sea level.
Bergamo is not in the Po valley. Wikipedia acknowledges Bergo's location on
the edge of the alpine region.
"Bergamo ... is a city in the alpine Lombardy region of northern Italy"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
News to me. I often fly from there and I can assure you it's on the valley floor!

Speaking of flying, the flight radar site has a wonderful terrain map:

https://www.flightradar24.com/45.59,9.71/11

Which shows quite clearly it's position on the edge of the valley, and with the new town and airport quite solidly on the plains.

But if wikipedia says it's alpine it must be true!

Interestingly it doesn't say that on the Italian Wikipedia page, it says it's on the plains where they meet the Bermascian pre alps. Even has a nice photo:

Loading Image...

(BTW, I suspect the reason is that somebody has confused the town with the county (provincia) of Bergamo, which whilst including the city is mostly in the alpine region ;-)


Now, back to basics, why are we even disputing whether Bergamo is in the alps or on the Val Padania....I only mentioned it in the first place because it was at the center of the Coronavirus outbreak.
Pamela
2020-03-28 13:35:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Roger wrote (in
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 11:25:35 AM UTC+1,
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I
thought it was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech. Or take any notice of what is
happening around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK
strategy, says on page 1 that "suppression"
(containment) is preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways
and containment was simply not working. At the time BJ
gave his speech it may have been possible to contain
if the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such
time as there was no trace of the virus. 100%
isolation can only be maintained in small
zones....people do have to maintain food and services
atc....not to mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment,
it would have had to maintain completely isolated from
any country were the virues was ongoing. At the time
of his speech there were allready uncontrolled
outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and
quite a few other places; all of whom had passed to a
delay phase and therefore containment would have
required 100% isolation from these countries for
perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment"
are unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the
change from practical "suppression" (containment) in
preference to "mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial
misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic
deaths, has been highly critical of Boris's inept
original strategy. The first things my friends in south
Lombardy say on the phone is what an idiot Boris has
been. I'm surprised you seem to have missed it. You may
have also missed recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of
deaths then suppression is the way out as China and
South Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime
Minster's speeches.
Post by Roger
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to
make assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived
conclusions. And this is what was reported in Italy; the
speech was for too long for an Italian to listent to. That
is probably why the Italian government didn't even bother
trying; they said pretty much nothing about the strategy
they just layed down the law.
In fact to summarise how BJ's speech was commonly reported
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it
wants to get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood
Boris's speech and Roger, over in italy, has the magic
understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could muster.
Many of Roger's posts are so surreal that I sometimes wonder if
he actually does believe the rot he writes. I do my best to tell
him he's an idiot in as polite a way as possible.
I recall Roger saying recently how the middle of Po Valley has
winter temperatures going down to an incredible -20 degrees.
It's too incredible for me and I don't believe it for one moment.
Roger struggled to offer any proof when I asked.
See here. http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158523572200
He's also talked about how dry it is in the same area but it's
actually very humid, which is one the reason much of the Italian
knitwear industry is located there as humidity from the Po river
prevents yarn breakages in days before air conditioning.
Perhaps the problem is that you just seem to look at the odd word.
For example, I reffered to 'cold and dry', which is specific
condition that is sometimes encountered when air is being blown in
from the Russian Steppes (which happens as Atlantic depressions
leave the Meditteranean area).
It happens mostly around FEB/March.
And yes, -20 is a bit low for Lombardy where record lows stop
around -18 (I live in Piedmonte, Turins record is -21.8 ).
Bergamo, at the centre of the Covid-19 outbreak, has weather info
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
But please, don't let facts get in the way of your posts ;-)
Bergamo? Are you saying it's in the Po valley? A lovely town but
it's closer to being alpine.
The ancient fortified city of Bergamo is on a hill that overlooks the
Po valley. The modern city (including Orio al Serio airport where the
weather data comes from) is down on the valley floor, 238M above sea
level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo#/media/File:Sunrise_at_
Bergamo_old_town,_Lombardy,_Italy.jpg
Alpine Communes are considered to be those that are more than 1200M
above sea level.
Bergamo is not in the Po valley. Wikipedia acknowledges Bergo's
location on the edge of the alpine region.
"Bergamo ... is a city in the alpine Lombardy region of northern Italy"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
News to me. I often fly from there and I can assure you it's on the valley floor!
Unfortunately the Po is a gazillion miles from Bergamo.

Anyway, why do you fly to Bergamo if you're trying to get to Piemonte and/or
Varese? Some airlines cheekily call Bergamo one of Milan's airports but it's
on the other side of Milan for you.
Post by Roger
https://www.flightradar24.com/45.59,9.71/11
Which shows quite clearly it's position on the edge of the valley, and
with the new town and airport quite solidly on the plains.
But if wikipedia says it's alpine it must be true!
Interestingly it doesn't say that on the Italian Wikipedia page, it says
it's on the plains where they meet the Bermascian pre alps. Even has a
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo#/media/File:Alta_Bergamasca.JPG
(BTW, I suspect the reason is that somebody has confused the town with
the county (provincia) of Bergamo, which whilst including the city is
mostly in the alpine region ;-)
Now, back to basics, why are we even disputing whether Bergamo is in the
alps or on the Val Padania....I only mentioned it in the first place
because it was at the center of the Coronavirus outbreak.
You posted Bergamo's lowest ever winter temperature as an illustration the Po
valley often reaches tempertaures as low as -20 degrees. I think it's
unrepresentative.
Roger
2020-03-28 14:17:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Roger wrote (in
On Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 12:59:03 PM UTC+1, Pamela
Post by Pamela
On Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 11:25:35 AM UTC+1,
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I
thought it was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech. Or take any notice of what is
happening around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK
strategy, says on page 1 that "suppression"
(containment) is preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways
and containment was simply not working. At the time BJ
gave his speech it may have been possible to contain
if the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such
time as there was no trace of the virus. 100%
isolation can only be maintained in small
zones....people do have to maintain food and services
atc....not to mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment,
it would have had to maintain completely isolated from
any country were the virues was ongoing. At the time
of his speech there were allready uncontrolled
outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and
quite a few other places; all of whom had passed to a
delay phase and therefore containment would have
required 100% isolation from these countries for
perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment"
are unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the
change from practical "suppression" (containment) in
preference to "mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial
misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic
deaths, has been highly critical of Boris's inept
original strategy. The first things my friends in south
Lombardy say on the phone is what an idiot Boris has
been. I'm surprised you seem to have missed it. You may
have also missed recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of
deaths then suppression is the way out as China and
South Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime
Minster's speeches.
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to
make assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived
conclusions. And this is what was reported in Italy; the
speech was for too long for an Italian to listent to. That
is probably why the Italian government didn't even bother
trying; they said pretty much nothing about the strategy
they just layed down the law.
In fact to summarise how BJ's speech was commonly reported
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it
wants to get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood
Boris's speech and Roger, over in italy, has the magic
understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could muster.
Many of Roger's posts are so surreal that I sometimes wonder if
he actually does believe the rot he writes. I do my best to tell
him he's an idiot in as polite a way as possible.
I recall Roger saying recently how the middle of Po Valley has
winter temperatures going down to an incredible -20 degrees.
It's too incredible for me and I don't believe it for one moment.
Roger struggled to offer any proof when I asked.
See here. http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158523572200
He's also talked about how dry it is in the same area but it's
actually very humid, which is one the reason much of the Italian
knitwear industry is located there as humidity from the Po river
prevents yarn breakages in days before air conditioning.
Perhaps the problem is that you just seem to look at the odd word.
For example, I reffered to 'cold and dry', which is specific
condition that is sometimes encountered when air is being blown in
from the Russian Steppes (which happens as Atlantic depressions
leave the Meditteranean area).
It happens mostly around FEB/March.
And yes, -20 is a bit low for Lombardy where record lows stop
around -18 (I live in Piedmonte, Turins record is -21.8 ).
Bergamo, at the centre of the Covid-19 outbreak, has weather info
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
But please, don't let facts get in the way of your posts ;-)
Bergamo? Are you saying it's in the Po valley? A lovely town but
it's closer to being alpine.
The ancient fortified city of Bergamo is on a hill that overlooks the
Po valley. The modern city (including Orio al Serio airport where the
weather data comes from) is down on the valley floor, 238M above sea
level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo#/media/File:Sunrise_at_
Bergamo_old_town,_Lombardy,_Italy.jpg
Alpine Communes are considered to be those that are more than 1200M
above sea level.
Bergamo is not in the Po valley. Wikipedia acknowledges Bergo's
location on the edge of the alpine region.
"Bergamo ... is a city in the alpine Lombardy region of northern Italy"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
News to me. I often fly from there and I can assure you it's on the valley floor!
Unfortunately the Po is a gazillion miles from Bergamo.
The Po Valley (Val Padania) is usually considered to be the whole of the big flat plain that defines Northern Italy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_Valley
Post by Pamela
Anyway, why do you fly to Bergamo if you're trying to get to Piemonte and/or
Varese? Some airlines cheekily call Bergamo one of Milan's airports but it's
on the other side of Milan for you.
When I'm going to Teeside my preffered route is Malpensa Manchester or Edingburgh with Easyjet.

But Bergamo is our local Ryanair hub, the Stanstead of northern Italy, so I often end up having to go there when I can't get decent EJ tickets or going to other destinations.
Post by Pamela
You posted Bergamo's lowest ever winter temperature as an illustration the Po
valley often reaches tempertaures as low as -20 degrees. I think it's
unrepresentative.
Oh. Well wherever you think it is, it's certainly representative of Bergamo....which was the subject of the discussion.
Keema's Nan
2020-03-28 14:32:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Roger
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Pamela wrote (in article
Post by Pamela
On 26 Mar 2020, Roger wrote (in
On Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 12:59:03 PM UTC+1, Pamela
Post by Pamela
On Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 11:25:35 AM UTC+1,
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I
thought it was the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech. Or take any notice of what is
happening around the world.
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK
strategy, says on page 1 that "suppression"
(containment) is preferred to "mitigation" (delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways
and containment was simply not working. At the time BJ
gave his speech it may have been possible to contain
if the UK had been on immediate 100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such
time as there was no trace of the virus. 100%
isolation can only be maintained in small
zones....people do have to maintain food and services
atc....not to mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment,
it would have had to maintain completely isolated from
any country were the virues was ongoing. At the time
of his speech there were allready uncontrolled
outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and
quite a few other places; all of whom had passed to a
delay phase and therefore containment would have
required 100% isolation from these countries for
perhaps a year.
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment"
are unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the
change from practical "suppression" (containment) in
preference to "mitigation" (delay) with Boris's initial
misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic
deaths, has been highly critical of Boris's inept
original strategy. The first things my friends in south
Lombardy say on the phone is what an idiot Boris has
been. I'm surprised you seem to have missed it. You may
have also missed recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of
deaths then suppression is the way out as China and
South Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris
Johnsons speech.
Another one telling us what we must watch.
He's an wacko who thinks Brits haven't heard our own Prime
Minster's speeches.
There were no shortage of people people in the UK happy to
make assumptions and derive their own politcally contrived
conclusions. And this is what was reported in Italy; the
speech was for too long for an Italian to listent to. That
is probably why the Italian government didn't even bother
trying; they said pretty much nothing about the strategy
they just layed down the law.
In fact to summarise how BJ's speech was commonly reported
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it
wants to get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech.
Fuck off.
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood
Boris's speech and Roger, over in italy, has the magic
understanding.
You have a much more polite way with words, than I could
muster.
Many of Roger's posts are so surreal that I sometimes wonder if
he actually does believe the rot he writes. I do my best to tell
him he's an idiot in as polite a way as possible.
I recall Roger saying recently how the middle of Po Valley has
winter temperatures going down to an incredible -20 degrees.
It's too incredible for me and I don't believe it for one moment.
Roger struggled to offer any proof when I asked.
See here. http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158523572200
He's also talked about how dry it is in the same area but it's
actually very humid, which is one the reason much of the Italian
knitwear industry is located there as humidity from the Po river
prevents yarn breakages in days before air conditioning.
Perhaps the problem is that you just seem to look at the odd word.
For example, I reffered to 'cold and dry', which is specific
condition that is sometimes encountered when air is being blown in
from the Russian Steppes (which happens as Atlantic depressions
leave the Meditteranean area).
It happens mostly around FEB/March.
And yes, -20 is a bit low for Lombardy where record lows stop
around -18 (I live in Piedmonte, Turins record is -21.8 ).
Bergamo, at the centre of the Covid-19 outbreak, has weather info
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
But please, don't let facts get in the way of your posts ;-)
Bergamo? Are you saying it's in the Po valley? A lovely town but
it's closer to being alpine.
The ancient fortified city of Bergamo is on a hill that overlooks the
Po valley. The modern city (including Orio al Serio airport where the
weather data comes from) is down on the valley floor, 238M above sea
level.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo#/media/File:Sunrise_at_
Bergamo_old_town,_Lombardy,_Italy.jpg
Alpine Communes are considered to be those that are more than 1200M
above sea level.
Bergamo is not in the Po valley. Wikipedia acknowledges Bergo's
location on the edge of the alpine region.
"Bergamo ... is a city in the alpine Lombardy region of northern Italy"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo
News to me. I often fly from there and I can assure you it's on the valley floor!
Unfortunately the Po is a gazillion miles from Bergamo.
Anyway, why do you fly to Bergamo if you're trying to get to Piemonte and/or
Varese? Some airlines cheekily call Bergamo one of Milan's airports but it's
on the other side of Milan for you.
Post by Roger
https://www.flightradar24.com/45.59,9.71/11
Which shows quite clearly it's position on the edge of the valley, and
with the new town and airport quite solidly on the plains.
But if wikipedia says it's alpine it must be true!
Interestingly it doesn't say that on the Italian Wikipedia page, it says
it's on the plains where they meet the Bermascian pre alps. Even has a
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergamo#/media/File:Alta_Bergamasca.JPG
(BTW, I suspect the reason is that somebody has confused the town with
the county (provincia) of Bergamo, which whilst including the city is
mostly in the alpine region ;-)
Now, back to basics, why are we even disputing whether Bergamo is in the
alps or on the Val Padania....I only mentioned it in the first place
because it was at the center of the Coronavirus outbreak.
You posted Bergamo's lowest ever winter temperature as an illustration the Po
valley often reaches tempertaures as low as -20 degrees. I think it's
unrepresentative.
As Bergamo is 1600ft above sea level, it is not surprising it has recorded
the occasional low night minimum. That is the extreme low for the town posted
on Wikipedia, but the average night low is around 0C for February, the month
in which that extreme occurred some time in the last 70 years.
Roger
2020-03-28 17:06:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
As Bergamo is 1600ft above sea level, it is not surprising it has recorded
the occasional low night minimum. That is the extreme low for the town posted
on Wikipedia, but the average night low is around 0C for February, the month
in which that extreme occurred some time in the last 70 years.
238M = 1600ft?

Record cold round here was in 2012....-21C and it killed quite a few bushes in my garden. But then I'm not on the Val Pandania. 0.1C is the average low.

Anyway...it's a moot point, I was pointing out that it get's cold where the epicentre of the Coronavirus is (Bergamo) and I think we are all agreed that it gets pretty cold there whether you consider it to be 'Alpine' or not!
Keema's Nan
2020-03-28 18:29:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
As Bergamo is 1600ft above sea level, it is not surprising it has recorded
the occasional low night minimum. That is the extreme low for the town posted
on Wikipedia, but the average night low is around 0C for February, the month
in which that extreme occurred some time in the last 70 years.
238M = 1600ft?
You had better edit the Wikipedia page. It says 485m.

That is as long as you haven’t already been blocked for posting shite of
course.
Post by Roger
Record cold round here was in 2012....-21C and it killed quite a few bushes
in my garden. But then I'm not on the Val Pandania. 0.1C is the average low.
Anyway...it's a moot point, I was pointing out that it get's cold where the
epicentre of the Coronavirus is (Bergamo) and I think we are all agreed that
it gets pretty cold there whether you consider it to be 'Alpine' or not!
Roger
2020-03-28 19:04:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
238M = 1600ft?
You had better edit the Wikipedia page. It says 485m.
Official elevation of Italian cities is where the 'Commune' (town hall) is. In Bergamo that is in the old walled city which is up on a hill overlooking the valley. In fact you go up to it on a rack railway.

The weather station quoted is at the airport which, like most of the city, is on the valley floor. The airport is at 238M.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orio_al_Serio_International_Airport
Keema's Nan
2020-03-28 19:31:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
238M = 1600ft?
You had better edit the Wikipedia page. It says 485m.
Official elevation of Italian cities is where the 'Commune' (town hall) is.
In Bergamo that is in the old walled city which is up on a hill overlooking
the valley. In fact you go up to it on a rack railway.
The weather station quoted is at the airport which, like most of the city, is
on the valley floor. The airport is at 238M.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orio_al_Serio_International_Airport
Why are you telling us this?

I couldn’t give a shit.
Roger
2020-03-28 20:19:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
238M = 1600ft?
You had better edit the Wikipedia page. It says 485m.
Official elevation of Italian cities is where the 'Commune' (town hall) is.
In Bergamo that is in the old walled city which is up on a hill overlooking
the valley. In fact you go up to it on a rack railway.
The weather station quoted is at the airport which, like most of the city, is
on the valley floor. The airport is at 238M.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orio_al_Serio_International_Airport
Why are you telling us this?
I couldn’t give a shit.
Then why did you post?
Keema's Nan
2020-03-28 21:46:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
238M = 1600ft?
You had better edit the Wikipedia page. It says 485m.
Official elevation of Italian cities is where the 'Commune' (town hall) is.
In Bergamo that is in the old walled city which is up on a hill overlooking
the valley. In fact you go up to it on a rack railway.
The weather station quoted is at the airport which, like most of the city, is
on the valley floor. The airport is at 238M.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orio_al_Serio_International_Airport
Why are you telling us this?
I couldn’t give a shit.
Then why did you post?
I didn’t. I merely quoted Wikipedia.
Joe
2020-03-28 21:50:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 28 Mar 2020 21:46:49 +0000
Post by Keema's Nan
I didn’t. I merely quoted Wikipedia.
And what's your normal opinion of Wikipedia when someone else quotes
from it?
--
Joe
Roger
2020-03-28 20:20:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
I couldn’t give a shit.
Neither could I; but it's what weeks of lockdown do to you....
Pamela
2020-03-28 21:31:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
I couldn't give a shit.
Neither could I; but it's what weeks of lockdown do to you....
I think you mean well Roger but you do make some odd comments. You're not
posting while sampling the vino, are you? :)

Anyway, you're back in my good books although I don't know why! Heh.
Pamela
2020-03-28 21:20:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
As Bergamo is 1600ft above sea level, it is not surprising it has
recorded the occasional low night minimum. That is the extreme low for
the town posted on Wikipedia, but the average night low is around 0C
for February, the month in which that extreme occurred some time in the
last 70 years.
238M = 1600ft?
Record cold round here was in 2012....-21C and it killed quite a few
bushes in my garden. But then I'm not on the Val Pandania. 0.1C is the
average low.
Anyway...it's a moot point, I was pointing out that it get's cold where
the epicentre of the Coronavirus is (Bergamo) and I think we are all
agreed that it gets pretty cold there whether you consider it to be
'Alpine' or not!
We were discussing the Po valley and the earliest cases in Lodi province,
not Bergamo, when you wrote that the Po valley had winters as cold as -20
degrees:

"The Italian outbreak is in the middle of the Po valley, which in
Jan/Feb has temperatures that can be as low as -20 and is so dry you
get big static shocks off cars."

http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158543034600
Keema's Nan
2020-03-28 21:53:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
As Bergamo is 1600ft above sea level, it is not surprising it has
recorded the occasional low night minimum. That is the extreme low for
the town posted on Wikipedia, but the average night low is around 0C
for February, the month in which that extreme occurred some time in the
last 70 years.
238M = 1600ft?
Record cold round here was in 2012....-21C and it killed quite a few
bushes in my garden. But then I'm not on the Val Pandania. 0.1C is the
average low.
Anyway...it's a moot point, I was pointing out that it get's cold where
the epicentre of the Coronavirus is (Bergamo) and I think we are all
agreed that it gets pretty cold there whether you consider it to be
'Alpine' or not!
We were discussing the Po valley and the earliest cases in Lodi province,
not Bergamo, when you wrote that the Po valley had winters as cold as -20
"The Italian outbreak is in the middle of the Po valley, which in
Jan/Feb has temperatures that can be as low as -20 and is so dry you
get big static shocks off cars."
http://al.howardknight.net/?ID=158543034600
He does not realise that the cars have been wired to the mains, to prevent
chavs like him from nicking them.
Roger
2020-03-26 14:53:06 UTC
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Post by Pamela
Roger seems to think no one in the UK properly understood Boris's speech and
Roger, over in italy, has the magic understanding.
Less than 3 minitues into BJ's speech:

"....we are now getting onto the next phase of that plan, this is now not just an attempt to contain the disease, as far as possible, but to delay it's spread..."

Pamela, a few posts back:

"Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was the
other way around. "


PLONK.
Pamela
2020-03-26 14:23:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was
the other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons
speech. Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
Post by Pamela
The Imperial College paper, which changed UK strategy, says on page
1 that "suppression" (containment) is preferred to "mitigation"
(delay).
It is. However it appears to spread in mysterious ways and
containment was simply not working. At the time BJ gave his speech it
may have been possible to contain if the UK had been on immediate
100% lockdown.
But that would have required 100% isolation until such time as there
was no trace of the virus. 100% isolation can only be maintained in
small zones....people do have to maintain food and services
etc....not to mention the medical care itself.
Even if the UK had somehow managed 100% containment, it would have
had to maintain completely isolated from any country were the virues
was ongoing. At the time of his speech there were allready
uncontrolled outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, NY/NJ and
quite a few other
places; all of whom had passed to a delay phase and therefore
containment would have required 100% isolation from these countries
for perhaps a year.
Post by Pamela
See paper here: https://tinyurl.com/imp-coll-covid
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-51981956
Your theoretical "100% isolation" and "100% containment" are
unattainable but nevertheless your link shows the change from practical
"suppression" (containment) in preference to "mitigation" (delay) with
Boris's initial misplaced objective of herd immunity.
The Italian media there, while downplaying domestic deaths, has been
highly critical of Boris's inept original strategy. The first things
my friends in south Lombardy say on the phone is what an idiot Boris
has been. I'm surprised you seem to have missed it. You may have also
missed recent Boris's volte face.
Unless we're willing to accept hundreds of thousands of deaths then
suppression is the way out as China and South Korea have shown.
This is why I recommended you actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
There were no shortage of people in the UK happy to make assumptions and
derive their own politcally contrived conclusions. And this is what was
reported in Italy; the speech was for too long for an Italian to listent
to. That is probably why the Italian government didn't even bother
trying; they said pretty much nothing about the strategy they just layed
down the law.
1) The UK has given up on containment.
2) The UK is not going to carry on as usual because it wants to get herd immunity.
3) Hundreds of thousands will die as a result.
Like I said, go and listen to the speech. Decide the truth for yourself ;-)
http://youtu.be/A0chs7bVQ8Y
Maybe it's unusual there in Italy to have heard Boris's speech but the
whole country here including myself has heard it. Perhaps you fondly
think you alone have stumbled across some secret magic text in which Boris
spills his strategy to the cognoscenti, but I can assure you it is very
well known here.

You are mixing up terms and just picking up incorrectly used terms from
somewhere. Boris is currently delaying the containment. He has abandoned
Dominic Cummings's quick "herd immunity" strategy.

Boris's original strategy had it's dilemmas. For instance, why did his
objective of herd immunity require a sudden rise, as initially anticipated
by Boris, rather than the flattened curve which he later adopted.

Then there's Boris nonsense behavioural psychology (allededly "guided by
science") in which he had deliberately refrained from acting quickly
because it would do more harm than good on account of some unproven
"coronavirus fatigue" by the public.

If I were you, I would mind your own Italian business first before
instructing Brits on what has been happening in the UK.
The Iceberg
2020-03-26 12:06:30 UTC
Reply
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Post by Roger
Post by Pamela
Has containment been abandoned in favour of delay? I thought it was the
other way around.
Yet another idiot who didn't actually listen to Boris Johnsons speech.
Or take any notice of what is happening around the world.
yes! find it bizarre how these middle class Remain types proved themselves so incapable of listening to or following basic instructions as given by Boris or taking notice of what's going on elsewhere, their soy latte gatherings at Starbucks / Richmond Park bike meet far outweighed old people dying and the NHS being overwhelmed, selfishness really nothing else.
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