Discussion:
BoJo a million miles out of his depth
(too old to reply)
tim...
2019-09-09 08:29:35 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Yes we can make our own laws - but only if they don't contradict EU laws
or no EU country feels that that law affects their companies more than
others. Look at the ridiculous case of Scotland and now Wales wanting to
introduce a minimum per unit price for alcohol and it being held up as a
number of countries contest it as a restriction of trade.
As an aside I never understood the idea. Why not increase duty to raise
the minimum price rather than increase supermarket profit margins?
because that increases the price of premium products as well

tim
Pancho
2019-09-09 09:01:58 UTC
Permalink
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles? Expensive
safety systems that make only a little difference to safety, but render
vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight damage? To reduce or
raise import tariffs on certain goods? At what level VAT should be set?
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods? To control immigration? And
the list goes on.
Yes we can make our own laws
I can make my own laws?

I thought laws had to be agreed by the group? I find it hard to
understand why the UK group is *we* and the EU group is *them*?

It seems obvious to me that if we share an environment, laws should be
decided by everyone affected. In a free trade area it also seems obvious
that some laws are required to control the entire free trade area.

VAT is a classic case. Without tariffs on trade between EU states we
need a common VAT rate, and probably redistribution between EU states,
or there will be a race to the bottom.

So yes, I wish I, personally, could make up all the laws that affect me
but I see the benefit of living in a community with shared standards and
rules.
The Natural Philosopher
2019-09-09 09:16:52 UTC
Permalink
I see the benefit of living in a community with shared standards and rules.
But sadly, none of the downsides.

Or indeed the fact that nothing prevents a sovereign UK from sharing
European standards, and indeed rules.

Except of course the EU...

Consider the possibility that the EU got essentially bought by a cartel
of multinationals and banks who proceeded to run it as a criminal
organisation.

How would you stop it 'from inside'?
--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
..I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)
Pancho
2019-09-09 09:52:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I see the benefit of living in a community with shared standards and rules.
But sadly, none of the downsides.
I see many downsides, but on balance I strongly believe common rules and
standards are a good thing.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Or indeed the fact that nothing prevents a sovereign UK from sharing
European standards, and indeed rules.
I see that too. Many rules are common across the globe.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Except of course the EU...
Consider the possibility that the EU got essentially bought by a cartel
of multinationals and banks who proceeded to run it as a criminal
organisation.
I do consider this possibility. But why is the EU worse than the UK in
this respect? A fundamental power of multinationals is that they operate
above national laws. In free trade areas they can play individual
nations off against each other. There needs to be international control
over multinationals or tariffs to protect a state from multinationals
operating offshore .

My personal view is the the UK is too small an economic area to make
tariffs work.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
How would you stop it 'from inside'?
The question is the same for Brussels or Westminster.
The Natural Philosopher
2019-09-09 12:03:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pancho
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Consider the possibility that the EU got essentially bought by a
cartel of multinationals and banks who proceeded to run it as a
criminal organisation.
I do consider this possibility. But why is the EU worse than the UK in
this respect? A fundamental power of multinationals is that they operate
above national laws. In free trade areas they can play individual
nations off against each other. There needs to be international control
over multinationals or tariffs to protect a state from multinationals
operating offshore .
My personal view is the the UK is too small an economic area to make
tariffs work.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
How would you stop it 'from inside'?
The question is the same for Brussels or Westminster.
But the answer is different.

That is why we are leaving
--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"
Pancho
2019-09-09 12:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Pancho
Post by The Natural Philosopher
How would you stop it 'from inside'?
The question is the same for Brussels or Westminster.
But the answer is different.
In what way is it different?

If anything the EU is more robust with regard to multinationals and more
resistant to their influence. Look at recent rules with respect to Google.

So why not give a specific? Rather than abstract comments, because I
don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
That is why we are leaving
We are leaving? When did that happen?
The Natural Philosopher
2019-09-09 12:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pancho
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Pancho
Post by The Natural Philosopher
How would you stop it 'from inside'?
The question is the same for Brussels or Westminster.
But the answer is different.
In what way is it different?
I am not sure if you are trolling or you sincerely failed to understand
that the EU cannot be changed 'from the inside' because its officials
and employess are not elected and are immune from prosecution.
Post by Pancho
If anything the EU is more robust with regard to multinationals and more
resistant to their influence. Look at recent rules with respect to Google.
So why not give a specific? Rather than abstract comments, because I
don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
That is why we are leaving
We are leaving? When did that happen?
three years ago dear.
--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey
Keema's Nan
2019-09-09 12:59:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pancho
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Pancho
Post by The Natural Philosopher
How would you stop it 'from inside'?
The question is the same for Brussels or Westminster.
But the answer is different.
In what way is it different?
If anything the EU is more robust with regard to multinationals and more
resistant to their influence. Look at recent rules with respect to Google.
So why not give a specific? Rather than abstract comments, because I
don't have a clue what you are talking about.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
That is why we are leaving
We are leaving? When did that happen?
When a large majority in the HoC voted to allow Theresa May to implement A50.
dennis@home
2019-09-09 11:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I see the benefit of living in a community with shared standards and rules.
But sadly, none of the downsides.
Or indeed the fact that nothing prevents a sovereign UK from sharing
European standards, and indeed rules.
Except of course the EU...
Consider the possibility that the EU got essentially bought by a cartel
of multinationals and banks who proceeded to run it as a criminal
organisation.
Like boris appears to want to do?
Post by The Natural Philosopher
How would you stop it 'from inside'?
It doesn't control parliament as it doesn't have a majority.
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-09 12:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I see the benefit of living in a community with shared standards and rules.
But sadly, none of the downsides.
Or indeed the fact that nothing prevents a sovereign UK from sharing
European standards, and indeed rules.
Indeed. And will still be forced to, once out of the EU. For things we
wish to export there. Same as with other countries. Rather than isolate,
it would make more sense to have international standards where possible.
Not your way of just wanting your own rules.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Except of course the EU...
Eh?
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Consider the possibility that the EU got essentially bought by a cartel
of multinationals and banks who proceeded to run it as a criminal
organisation.
How would you stop it 'from inside'?
Have you been smoking something? Or just hitting the booze rather earlier
than usual?
--
*Confession is good for the soul, but bad for your career.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Steve Walker
2019-09-09 16:22:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by The Natural Philosopher
I see the benefit of living in a community with shared standards and rules.
But sadly, none of the downsides.
Or indeed the fact that nothing prevents a sovereign UK from sharing
European standards, and indeed rules.
Indeed. And will still be forced to, once out of the EU. For things we
wish to export there. Same as with other countries. Rather than isolate,
it would make more sense to have international standards where possible.
Not your way of just wanting your own rules.
Of course anything sent to the EU must meet EU standards, but equally,
after leaving, anything received from the EU must meet our standards.

Once out, we can agree to continue that, but *also* to accept standards
of other countries that have high enough ones and so not have them leap
through the hoops of EU certification, when they already have their own.

We could even decide to have our own standards for some things, which
may be more stringent that EU ones in some areas and less in others.
Obviously goods made to those standards could not be exported to the EU
and equally, if made in the EU for here, could not be sold there - just
as is the case with goods to/from other non-EU countries.

Many non-EU countries manage to produce EU CE marked goods, without
tying their own markets into the same standards and rules.

SteveW
Incubus
2019-09-09 10:13:31 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 8 Sep 2019 10:29:31 +0100, Ian Jackson
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Er, I don't think that it's news that the "lloss of sovereignty" was
fiction. Whether WTO or independent trade our laws have to accommodate
other countries needs also.
The knuckledraggers swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. You
stand no chance of telling the idiots anything, if the truth wasn't
totally obvious at the start, it isn't going to sink in now.
As I have pointed out, it took seconds to work out that PPI was
totally pointless when it was being pushed years back. How many morons
fell for it? An entire industry kicked off helping the brain dead
Brits claim back their cash. Do you really expect any level of
comprehension from the morons?
Strawmen aplenty.
Why not just go back to MySpace, where people revel in this nonsense?
He's pretty obviously a troll, not even as subtle as MM. I'm not going to
waste my time with him.
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp Esq
2019-09-09 20:33:12 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 10:13:31 -0000 (UTC), Incubus
Post by Incubus
He's pretty obviously a troll, not even as subtle as MM. I'm not going to
waste my time with him.
But you did you silly billy!

You aren't Doomed Dimwit are you? He delights in telling people they
are killfiled.

It provides an ego boost to reject one's superiors so readily. If You
are not doomed Dimwit, give it a try, you should find a lot of
superiors around to killfile.

AB
dennis@home
2019-09-09 11:14:26 UTC
Permalink
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles? Expensive
safety systems that make only a little difference to safety, but render
vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and get
them through the approvals with fundementally differen designs. Its one
thing swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something else to
build a new car from the ground up.
To reduce or
raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we are
abussing the WTO system.
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and then
take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they are
about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
And
the list goes on.
And like all brexiteers you have chosen a set that are not implimented
by the EU but by the UK government, its almost as though brexiteers
don't have a clue.
Yes we can make our own laws - but only if they don't contradict EU laws
or no EU country feels that that law affects their companies more than
others. Look at the ridiculous case of Scotland and now Wales wanting to
introduce a minimum per unit price for alcohol and it being held up as a
number of countries contest it as a restriction of trade.
Yes just look at it.. Scotland do have a minimum price for alcohol so
thats another brexiteer talking cock.
SteveW
tim...
2019-09-09 12:02:50 UTC
Permalink
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles? Expensive
safety systems that make only a little difference to safety, but render
vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and get them
through the approvals with fundementally differen designs. Its one thing
swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something else to build a new
car from the ground up.
but it does mean that we can say "a not working thingamajig is no longer an
MOT failure"

I just had to scrap a car because some functionally unnecessary, but
mandatory, additional thingy broke and cost more to replace than the car was
worth.
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we are
abussing the WTO system.
That would be charging differential tariffs (which are legal, but have to be
justified)

simply setting a high tariff for all, is not an abuse of the system
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and then
take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
No we didn't

the rules were already in place when we joined.
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
but the rules says that once we put it on (a new category) we cannot take it
off again
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they are
about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
Non-EU immigration all fits into the category of:

Highly skilled workers (with a job offer) or joining family members to be
supported by the family already here

Almost none of the ROW immigration comes here to take up minimum wage work
and scrounge on the welfare state.

That's the problem with EU immigration - that it's possible for them to do
that, not that they all do.
And the list goes on.
And like all brexiteers you have chosen a set that are not implimented by
the EU but by the UK government, its almost as though brexiteers don't
have a clue.
and your misunderstanding of ROW immigration show that you don't have a clue
either
dennis@home
2019-09-09 14:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce
the downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles?
Expensive safety systems that make only a little difference to
safety, but render vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight
damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and get
them through the approvals with fundementally differen designs. Its
one thing swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something else
to build a new car from the ground up.
but it does mean that we can say "a not working thingamajig is no longer
an MOT failure"
I just had to scrap a car because some functionally unnecessary, but
mandatory, additional thingy broke and cost more to replace than the car
was worth.
Want to say what it was?
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we
are abussing the WTO system.
That would be charging differential tariffs (which are legal, but have
to be justified)
simply setting a high tariff for all, is not an abuse of the system
Post by ***@home
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and
then take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
No we didn't
Of course we did, why don't we have VAT on childrens cloths when the
rest of the EU does?
Why didn't we have VAT on energy until the UK government decided that a
carbon tax was a good idea and used VAT to collect it?
You really do talk cock.
Post by tim...
the rules were already in place when we joined.
Post by ***@home
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
but the rules says that once we put it on (a new category) we cannot
take it off again
So, we still put it on not the EU.
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they are
about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
Highly skilled workers (with a job offer) or joining family members to
be supported by the family already here
Almost none of the ROW immigration comes here to take up minimum wage
work and scrounge on the welfare state.
yet elderly parents are allowed in and get OAP and benefits.
Post by tim...
That's the problem with EU immigration - that it's possible for them to
do that, not that they all do.
Post by ***@home
And the list goes on.
And like all brexiteers you have chosen a set that are not implimented
by the EU but by the UK government, its almost as though brexiteers
don't have a clue.
and your misunderstanding of ROW immigration show that you don't have a
clue either
you don't appear to understand row immigration, a lot of them do get
benefits.
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-09 14:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
I just had to scrap a car because some functionally unnecessary, but
mandatory, additional thingy broke and cost more to replace than the
car was worth.
Want to say what it was?
And what the car was worth.
--
*I know a guy who's addicted to brake fluid. He says he can stop any time.*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
tim...
2019-09-09 15:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
I just had to scrap a car because some functionally unnecessary, but
mandatory, additional thingy broke and cost more to replace than the
car was worth.
Want to say what it was?
And what the car was worth.
about 800 quid

minus the 200 I got from the scrappy

600 quid value

but it ran perfectly, it didn't need scrapping for mechanical reasons
tim...
2019-09-09 15:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles?
Expensive safety systems that make only a little difference to safety,
but render vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and get
them through the approvals with fundementally differen designs. Its one
thing swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something else to
build a new car from the ground up.
but it does mean that we can say "a not working thingamajig is no longer
an MOT failure"
I just had to scrap a car because some functionally unnecessary, but
mandatory, additional thingy broke and cost more to replace than the car
was worth.
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other

the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we are
abussing the WTO system.
That would be charging differential tariffs (which are legal, but have to
be justified)
simply setting a high tariff for all, is not an abuse of the system
Post by ***@home
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and then
take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
No we didn't
Of course we did, why don't we have VAT on childrens cloths when the rest
of the EU does?
because the rule don't mandate that we put VAT on these items

just that we may, and that once we have doen so we can't take it off
Post by ***@home
Why didn't we have VAT on energy until the UK government decided that a
carbon tax was a good idea and used VAT to collect it?
because we didn't have to put VAT on fuel until HMG needed the extra income
Post by ***@home
You really do talk cock.
So says the class clown
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
the rules were already in place when we joined.
Post by ***@home
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
but the rules says that once we put it on (a new category) we cannot take
it off again
So, we still put it on not the EU.
voluntarily, not because they told us to
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they are
about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
Highly skilled workers (with a job offer) or joining family members to be
supported by the family already here
Almost none of the ROW immigration comes here to take up minimum wage
work and scrounge on the welfare state.
yet elderly parents are allowed in and get OAP and benefits.
no they aren't, because they wont have paid enough in to get a pension

tim
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-09 15:50:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long?

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
dennis@home
2019-09-09 20:31:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
tim...
2019-09-10 09:44:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
where did I sat that this rule has anything to do with the EU
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-10 10:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
Oddly, it was the US that started emissions controls on cars, not the EU.
Nothing to do with saving the planet, but to make things more comfortable
around LA.

And an MOT doesn't check emissions throughout an engine's range.
--
*My dog can lick anyone

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
tim...
2019-09-10 10:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
Oddly, it was the US that started emissions controls on cars, not the EU.
Nothing to do with saving the planet, but to make things more comfortable
around LA.
And an MOT doesn't check emissions throughout an engine's range.
but it does check that the sensor warning light is off

tim
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
--
*My dog can lick anyone
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-10 12:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to
scrap the car and not stupidity.
Oddly, it was the US that started emissions controls on cars, not the
EU. Nothing to do with saving the planet, but to make things more
comfortable around LA.
And an MOT doesn't check emissions throughout an engine's range.
but it does check that the sensor warning light is off
Sensor warning light? Never seen one of those. Do you mean check engine?
And then have the codes read to see what the problem actually is?
--
*A clear conscience is the sign of a fuzzy memory.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-09-10 13:03:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
Oddly, it was the US that started emissions controls on cars, not the EU.
Nothing to do with saving the planet, but to make things more comfortable
around LA.
And an MOT doesn't check emissions throughout an engine's range.
but it does check that the sensor warning light is off
Any condition I can think of that would cause the engine management
light to come on would also result in a failure; but I don't think that
just having the light come on would, by itself, do so. Although I'd be
interested to hear of any possible examples where it might not.
Post by tim...
tim
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
--
*My dog can lick anyone
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.
The Natural Philosopher
2019-09-10 14:56:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
Oddly, it was the US that started emissions controls on cars, not the EU.
Nothing to do with saving the planet, but to make things more comfortable
around LA.
And an MOT doesn't check emissions throughout an engine's range.
but it does check that the sensor warning light is off
Any condition I can think of that would cause the engine management
light to come on would also result in a failure; but I don't think that
just having the light come on would, by itself, do so.  Although I'd be
interested to hear of any possible examples where it might not.
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run, just
at high emissions for example.

sticky air flow sensors can be expensive and cause a light..
as can water temp sensors ..
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by tim...
tim
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
--
*My dog can lick anyone
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.
--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-09-10 16:55:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
Oddly, it was the US that started emissions controls on cars, not the EU.
Nothing to do with saving the planet, but to make things more comfortable
around LA.
And an MOT doesn't check emissions throughout an engine's range.
but it does check that the sensor warning light is off
Any condition I can think of that would cause the engine management
light to come on would also result in a failure; but I don't think
that just having the light come on would, by itself, do so.  Although
I'd be interested to hear of any possible examples where it might not.
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run, just
at high emissions for example.
I had a top lambda sensor drift out of spec, and only the MOT tester
noticed. But I was trying to think of EML fault conditions that might
appear and not cause an MOT failure, not an engine failure :-)
Post by The Natural Philosopher
sticky air flow sensors can be expensive and cause a light..
as can water temp sensors ..
TBH, I was forgetting that there seems to be sensor for just about
everything nowadays. My old Fiesta is hardly cutting-edge tech. :-)
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by tim...
tim
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
--
*My dog can lick anyone
                 To e-mail, change noise into sound.
tim...
2019-09-11 08:15:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
Oddly, it was the US that started emissions controls on cars, not the EU.
Nothing to do with saving the planet, but to make things more comfortable
around LA.
And an MOT doesn't check emissions throughout an engine's range.
but it does check that the sensor warning light is off
Any condition I can think of that would cause the engine management light
to come on would also result in a failure; but I don't think that just
having the light come on would, by itself, do so. Although I'd be
interested to hear of any possible examples where it might not.
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run, just at
high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally

tim
Peeler
2019-09-11 09:37:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
some sensors can fail
dim
...not as much as your senile brain fails you, dim! <BG>
The Natural Philosopher
2019-09-11 10:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
Oddly, it was the US that started emissions controls on cars, not the EU.
Nothing to do with saving the planet, but to make things more comfortable
around LA.
And an MOT doesn't check emissions throughout an engine's range.
but it does check that the sensor warning light is off
Any condition I can think of that would cause the engine management
light to come on would also result in a failure; but I don't think
that just having the light come on would, by itself, do so.  Although
I'd be interested to hear of any possible examples where it might not.
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run,
just at high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally
Then one might question why they are there at all.
Post by tim...
tim
--
"And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch".

Gospel of St. Mathew 15:14
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-11 12:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run,
just at high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally
Which ones would those be?
--
*Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
charles
2019-09-11 13:45:27 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:30:13 +0100
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run,
just at high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally
Which ones would those be?
Not the crankshaft position sensor.
But the emissions sensors generally provide feedback. If one fails, the
engine light will come on and the engine management system will use the
last available settings from when the sensor was working. In the long
term, the engine will drift out of emissions spec. but it will go on
running reasonably well for a while.
Not on my new car 6 years ago. Engine would tick over - but that was it.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-09-11 13:50:29 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:30:13 +0100
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run,
just at high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally
Which ones would those be?
Not the crankshaft position sensor.
Possibly the worst one to go :-)
But the emissions sensors generally provide feedback. If one fails, the
engine light will come on and the engine management system will use the
last available settings from when the sensor was working. In the long
term, the engine will drift out of emissions spec. but it will go on
running reasonably well for a while.
Early engine management systems used a default set of values after
sensor failure, which would generally get you home but was quite poor.
It's a bit more sophisticated today.
But to drift back to the topic, my current car has tyre pressure
sensors, which are literally more trouble than they are worth, as they
are worthless. They are not particularly accurate, and apparently put
more wear and tear on valve bodies than formerly. I've had to replace
two valves, at a cost of about thirty pounds, which have torn around the
seating. Again, light on, MOT fail, regardless of the actual tyre
pressures, which of course are a potential failure point in their own
right.
Did you have an actual fail for a tyre pressure warning? That seems a
bit harsh, unless they are are obviously visually low.
Roger
2019-09-11 14:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:30:13 +0100
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run,
just at high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally
Which ones would those be?
Not the crankshaft position sensor.
Possibly the worst one to go :-)
But the emissions sensors generally provide feedback. If one fails, the
engine light will come on and the engine management system will use the
last available settings from when the sensor was working. In the long
term, the engine will drift out of emissions spec. but it will go on
running reasonably well for a while.
Early engine management systems used a default set of values after
sensor failure, which would generally get you home but was quite poor.
It's a bit more sophisticated today.
But to drift back to the topic, my current car has tyre pressure
sensors, which are literally more trouble than they are worth, as they
are worthless. They are not particularly accurate, and apparently put
more wear and tear on valve bodies than formerly. I've had to replace
two valves, at a cost of about thirty pounds, which have torn around the
seating. Again, light on, MOT fail, regardless of the actual tyre
pressures, which of course are a potential failure point in their own
right.
Did you have an actual fail for a tyre pressure warning? That seems a
bit harsh, unless they are are obviously visually low.
Come to Italy, my old Panda's got a cracked windscreen an injector warning light permanently on (because the catalytic sensor is up the shoot). Mechanic stuck a wad of special material over the gas sensor so the recorded readings where logged OK. I wonder if he used to work for vokswagen?
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-09-11 15:04:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:30:13 +0100
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run,
just at high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally
Which ones would those be?
Not the crankshaft position sensor.
Possibly the worst one to go :-)
But the emissions sensors generally provide feedback. If one fails, the
engine light will come on and the engine management system will use the
last available settings from when the sensor was working. In the long
term, the engine will drift out of emissions spec. but it will go on
running reasonably well for a while.
Early engine management systems used a default set of values after
sensor failure, which would generally get you home but was quite poor.
It's a bit more sophisticated today.
But to drift back to the topic, my current car has tyre pressure
sensors, which are literally more trouble than they are worth, as they
are worthless. They are not particularly accurate, and apparently put
more wear and tear on valve bodies than formerly. I've had to replace
two valves, at a cost of about thirty pounds, which have torn around the
seating. Again, light on, MOT fail, regardless of the actual tyre
pressures, which of course are a potential failure point in their own
right.
Did you have an actual fail for a tyre pressure warning? That seems a
bit harsh, unless they are are obviously visually low.
Come to Italy, my old Panda's got a cracked windscreen an injector warning light permanently on (because the catalytic sensor is up the shoot). Mechanic stuck a wad of special material over the gas sensor so the recorded readings where logged OK. I wonder if he used to work for vokswagen?
My missus is Italian, so we visit her mum and dad a few times a year.
It does seem that they take regulations a little less seriously than we
do. The one about having to have one's car lights on during the day
does not seem to be very strictly followed. Perhaps one of our problems
with the EU is that they craft their regulations for people who don't
always observe them, whereas we are generally a nation of
rule-followers? Just a guess.
Roger
2019-09-11 16:44:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Roger
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:30:13 +0100
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run,
just at high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally
Which ones would those be?
Not the crankshaft position sensor.
Possibly the worst one to go :-)
But the emissions sensors generally provide feedback. If one fails, the
engine light will come on and the engine management system will use the
last available settings from when the sensor was working. In the long
term, the engine will drift out of emissions spec. but it will go on
running reasonably well for a while.
Early engine management systems used a default set of values after
sensor failure, which would generally get you home but was quite poor.
It's a bit more sophisticated today.
But to drift back to the topic, my current car has tyre pressure
sensors, which are literally more trouble than they are worth, as they
are worthless. They are not particularly accurate, and apparently put
more wear and tear on valve bodies than formerly. I've had to replace
two valves, at a cost of about thirty pounds, which have torn around the
seating. Again, light on, MOT fail, regardless of the actual tyre
pressures, which of course are a potential failure point in their own
right.
Did you have an actual fail for a tyre pressure warning? That seems a
bit harsh, unless they are are obviously visually low.
Come to Italy, my old Panda's got a cracked windscreen an injector warning light permanently on (because the catalytic sensor is up the shoot). Mechanic stuck a wad of special material over the gas sensor so the recorded readings where logged OK. I wonder if he used to work for vokswagen?
My missus is Italian, so we visit her mum and dad a few times a year.
It does seem that they take regulations a little less seriously than we
do. The one about having to have one's car lights on during the day
does not seem to be very strictly followed. Perhaps one of our problems
with the EU is that they craft their regulations for people who don't
always observe them, whereas we are generally a nation of
rule-followers? Just a guess.
Catholics like to live in perpetual sin.
Calvinists love obeying the rules.
Anglicans believe rules are made to be broken.
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-11 15:45:26 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:30:13 +0100
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run,
just at high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally
Which ones would those be?
Not the crankshaft position sensor.
On some makes, the cam position sensor can take over when the CPS fails,
and allow the engine to run in limp home mode.
But the emissions sensors generally provide feedback. If one fails, the
engine light will come on and the engine management system will use the
last available settings from when the sensor was working. In the long
term, the engine will drift out of emissions spec. but it will go on
running reasonably well for a while.
True. Depends on what you mean by run normally.
Early engine management systems used a default set of values after
sensor failure, which would generally get you home but was quite poor.
It's a bit more sophisticated today.
But to drift back to the topic, my current car has tyre pressure
sensors, which are literally more trouble than they are worth, as they
are worthless. They are not particularly accurate, and apparently put
more wear and tear on valve bodies than formerly. I've had to replace
two valves, at a cost of about thirty pounds, which have torn around the
seating. Again, light on, MOT fail, regardless of the actual tyre
pressures, which of course are a potential failure point in their own
right.
--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-09-11 16:00:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 13:30:13 +0100
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Well some of the exhaust sensors can fail and the engine will run,
just at high emissions for example.
some sensors can fail and the engine will still run normally
Which ones would those be?
Not the crankshaft position sensor.
On some makes, the cam position sensor can take over when the CPS fails,
and allow the engine to run in limp home mode.
Clever. In fact, so crucial is it that they ought to simply put another
sensor on the other end of the crankshaft :-)
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But the emissions sensors generally provide feedback. If one fails, the
engine light will come on and the engine management system will use the
last available settings from when the sensor was working. In the long
term, the engine will drift out of emissions spec. but it will go on
running reasonably well for a while.
True. Depends on what you mean by run normally.
Early engine management systems used a default set of values after
sensor failure, which would generally get you home but was quite poor.
It's a bit more sophisticated today.
But to drift back to the topic, my current car has tyre pressure
sensors, which are literally more trouble than they are worth, as they
are worthless. They are not particularly accurate, and apparently put
more wear and tear on valve bodies than formerly. I've had to replace
two valves, at a cost of about thirty pounds, which have torn around the
seating. Again, light on, MOT fail, regardless of the actual tyre
pressures, which of course are a potential failure point in their own
right.
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-12 14:31:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
On some makes, the cam position sensor can take over when the CPS
fails, and allow the engine to run in limp home mode.
Clever. In fact, so crucial is it that they ought to simply put another
sensor on the other end of the crankshaft :-)
Never quite understood the change from VR sensors to hall effect. VR,
being simply a coil, are far more heat resistant than hall. Electronics
that can get up to engine heat never a good idea IMHO.

But you wouldn't need to put it on the other end of the crank. Simply on a
different part of the toothed wheel and compensate in the ECU.
--
*Never put off until tomorrow what you can avoid altogether *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-09-12 16:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
On some makes, the cam position sensor can take over when the CPS
fails, and allow the engine to run in limp home mode.
Clever. In fact, so crucial is it that they ought to simply put another
sensor on the other end of the crankshaft :-)
Never quite understood the change from VR sensors to hall effect. VR,
being simply a coil, are far more heat resistant than hall. Electronics
that can get up to engine heat never a good idea IMHO.
My sister had one go on her dreadful Meriva while we were all out
somewhere. Then it would run for a few miles and then we'd have to let
it cool down all over again. I'm guessing it was a potted thing that
started to crack with heat and age.

A far cry from my old Tiger Cub where you would just turn the
distributor until it sounded happy, then nip it up. :-)
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
But you wouldn't need to put it on the other end of the crank. Simply on a
different part of the toothed wheel and compensate in the ECU.
Silly me :-)
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-12 23:52:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
My sister had one go on her dreadful Meriva while we were all out
somewhere. Then it would run for a few miles and then we'd have to let
it cool down all over again. I'm guessing it was a potted thing that
started to crack with heat and age.
A far cry from my old Tiger Cub where you would just turn the
distributor until it sounded happy, then nip it up. :-)
And, of course, reset or replace the points regularly. ;-)
--
*Red meat is not bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is bad for you.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-09-13 09:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
My sister had one go on her dreadful Meriva while we were all out
somewhere. Then it would run for a few miles and then we'd have to let
it cool down all over again. I'm guessing it was a potted thing that
started to crack with heat and age.
A far cry from my old Tiger Cub where you would just turn the
distributor until it sounded happy, then nip it up. :-)
And, of course, reset or replace the points regularly. ;-)
Especially if the condenser was knackered - as they always were. Seemed
too expensive in those days.
dennis@home
2019-09-12 17:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
On some makes, the cam position sensor can take over when the CPS
fails, and allow the engine to run in limp home mode.
Clever. In fact, so crucial is it that they ought to simply put another
sensor on the other end of the crankshaft :-)
Never quite understood the change from VR sensors to hall effect. VR,
being simply a coil, are far more heat resistant than hall. Electronics
that can get up to engine heat never a good idea IMHO.
precision and accuracy without needing adjustment.
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-12 23:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
On some makes, the cam position sensor can take over when the CPS
fails, and allow the engine to run in limp home mode.
Clever. In fact, so crucial is it that they ought to simply put another
sensor on the other end of the crankshaft :-)
Never quite understood the change from VR sensors to hall effect. VR,
being simply a coil, are far more heat resistant than hall. Electronics
that can get up to engine heat never a good idea IMHO.
precision and accuracy without needing adjustment.
A VR sensor provides adequate precision. The electronics in the ECU
trigger at the zero crossing point. Only thing in a hall effect's favour
is it gives a constant amplitude signal regardless of speed.
--
*I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
dennis@home
2019-09-13 18:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
On some makes, the cam position sensor can take over when the CPS
fails, and allow the engine to run in limp home mode.
Clever. In fact, so crucial is it that they ought to simply put another
sensor on the other end of the crankshaft :-)
Never quite understood the change from VR sensors to hall effect. VR,
being simply a coil, are far more heat resistant than hall. Electronics
that can get up to engine heat never a good idea IMHO.
precision and accuracy without needing adjustment.
A VR sensor provides adequate precision. The electronics in the ECU
trigger at the zero crossing point. Only thing in a hall effect's favour
is it gives a constant amplitude signal regardless of speed.
So VR is less accurate as it has to detect zero crossing in a noisy
environment.
A hall effect can output a big voltage signal as soon as it detects a
particular magnetic signal in a far less noisy environment.
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-14 10:39:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
A VR sensor provides adequate precision. The electronics in the ECU
trigger at the zero crossing point. Only thing in a hall effect's favour
is it gives a constant amplitude signal regardless of speed.
So VR is less accurate as it has to detect zero crossing in a noisy
environment.
Not less accurate if the electronics are properly designed.
Post by ***@home
A hall effect can output a big voltage signal as soon as it detects a
particular magnetic signal in a far less noisy environment.
True. A VR sensor really needs screened cable since the output when
cranking may only be a volt or so.

However, a hall sensor is a complex electronic device, and by nature with
a CPS situated where it is going to get hot. And heat kills most
electronics in time.
--
*I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe*

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
jeikppkywk
2019-09-14 14:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
A VR sensor provides adequate precision. The electronics in the ECU
trigger at the zero crossing point. Only thing in a hall effect's favour
is it gives a constant amplitude signal regardless of speed.
So VR is less accurate as it has to detect zero crossing in a noisy
environment.
Not less accurate if the electronics are properly designed.
Post by ***@home
A hall effect can output a big voltage signal as soon as it detects a
particular magnetic signal in a far less noisy environment.
True. A VR sensor really needs screened cable since the output when
cranking may only be a volt or so.
However, a hall sensor is a complex electronic device, and by nature with
a CPS situated where it is going to get hot. And heat kills most
electronics in time.
Clearly doesn’t kill most car computers.
Peeler
2019-09-14 15:24:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 15 Sep 2019 00:34:18 +1000, jeikppkywk, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH senile asshole's trollshit>

00:34 am in Australia??? And you are OUT of bed and trolling, ALREADY???
LMAO

That must be a new record, even for a miserable trolling asshole like you!
LOL
--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/
dennis@home
2019-09-11 20:41:58 UTC
Permalink
On 11/09/2019 14:34, Joe wrote:
8<
But to drift back to the topic, my current car has tyre pressure
sensors, which are literally more trouble than they are worth, as they
are worthless. They are not particularly accurate, and apparently put
more wear and tear on valve bodies than formerly. I've had to replace
two valves, at a cost of about thirty pounds, which have torn around the
seating. Again, light on, MOT fail, regardless of the actual tyre
pressures, which of course are a potential failure point in their own
right.
What car is that, my wife's astra tp system is within 1 psi of my other
two gauges and has been working for eight years and two sets of tyres
and a couple of punctures.
tim...
2019-09-11 08:11:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by ***@home
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
You shouldn't tell him that he likes to think the EU caused him to scrap
the car and not stupidity.
Oddly, it was the US that started emissions controls on cars, not the EU.
Nothing to do with saving the planet, but to make things more comfortable
around LA.
And an MOT doesn't check emissions throughout an engine's range.
but it does check that the sensor warning light is off
Any condition I can think of that would cause the engine management light
to come on would also result in a failure;
MOT Failure or Engine Management failure?
but I don't think that just having the light come on would, by itself, do
so.
Any mandatory waning light that is permanently on, is an MOT failure. The
owner is expected to fix, whatever it is that has caused the light to come
on.

The excuse "I don't use the rear seats so the seat belt warning light wrong
being on when no-one is sitting in the rear seats isn't a problem for me",
doesn't wash.

(and any warning light that doesn't come on at start up is also a failure -
to avoid people just taking the bulb out, if that's even possible with
integrate consoles)
Although I'd be interested to hear of any possible examples where it might
not.
The engine management systems light comes on when it detects any of the
sensors has failed. It matters not that the emission are still 100%
correct. The failed sensor is enough

HTH

tim
The Natural Philosopher
2019-09-11 10:12:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
The excuse "I don't use the rear seats so the seat belt warning light
wrong being on when no-one is sitting in the rear seats isn't a problem
for me", doesn't wash.
hey failed my freelander for 'inoperable rear seat belt'

They had I suspect DELIBERATELY pulled the belt out, twisted it 180
degrees and fed it back into the slot.

Didnt tale lomg to strip the lining and untwist it.
--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-11 12:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by tim...
The excuse "I don't use the rear seats so the seat belt warning light
wrong being on when no-one is sitting in the rear seats isn't a
problem for me", doesn't wash.
hey failed my freelander for 'inoperable rear seat belt'
They had I suspect DELIBERATELY pulled the belt out, twisted it 180
degrees and fed it back into the slot.
Your paranoia is in overdrive today.
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Didnt tale lomg to strip the lining and untwist it.
--
*Can atheists get insurance for acts of God? *

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
dennis@home
2019-09-11 20:46:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by The Natural Philosopher
Post by tim...
The excuse "I don't use the rear seats so the seat belt warning light
wrong being on when no-one is sitting in the rear seats isn't a
problem for me", doesn't wash.
hey failed my freelander for 'inoperable rear seat belt'
They had I suspect DELIBERATELY pulled the belt out, twisted it 180
degrees and fed it back into the slot.
Your paranoia is in overdrive today.
it was an eu plot.
tim...
2019-09-10 09:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
if you know how to the take car apart to change it

otherwise it's a 400 quid garage bill
charles
2019-09-10 10:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
if you know how to the take car apart to change it
otherwise it's a 400 quid garage bill
I had a sensor fail on nearly new car. It only took half an hour to replace.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
The Natural Philosopher
2019-09-10 10:35:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
if you know how to the take car apart to change it
otherwise it's a 400 quid garage bill
I had a sensor fail on nearly new car. It only took half an hour to replace.
On my first vehicle, a bedford VA MkII van, I could repolace the
thermostat in about 5 minutes.


On my latest car, a Freelander 1, it took 4 hours and cost 400 quid
along with changing the aircon cooler

Access is everything
--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-10 12:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Natural Philosopher
On my first vehicle, a bedford VA MkII van, I could repolace the
thermostat in about 5 minutes.
On my latest car, a Freelander 1, it took 4 hours and cost 400 quid
along with changing the aircon cooler
Pray tell how long it would have taken to change the 'aircon cooler'
(whatever your odd mind thinks that is) in a Bedford VA Mk111 van?
--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-10 10:17:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
if you know how to the take car apart to change it
otherwise it's a 400 quid garage bill
Which sensor exactly? Most are pretty easy to change.
--
*Sometimes I wake up grumpy; Other times I let him sleep.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
tim...
2019-09-10 10:25:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
if you know how to the take car apart to change it
otherwise it's a 400 quid garage bill
Which sensor exactly?
no idea
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Most are pretty easy to change.
that's not what the garage said

tim
The Natural Philosopher
2019-09-10 10:38:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
if you know how to the take car apart to change it
otherwise it's a 400 quid garage bill
Which sensor exactly?
no idea
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Most are pretty easy to change.
that's not what the garage said
Many are not.

Just depends if you can get a hand and a spanner to it.

a non sensor example. Ive got a whining (remoaner style) centre
propshaft bearing. I got two bearings to replace the ones in there for
£25. Its over tow hours rated to replace them even though they are just
bolted to the car floor...
Post by tim...
tim
--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard
Rod Speed
2019-09-10 16:43:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Pattern ones are about £30.
if you know how to the take car apart to change it
otherwise it's a 400 quid garage bill
Which sensor exactly?
no idea
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Most are pretty easy to change.
that's not what the garage said
Which car model and year ?
Peeler
2019-09-10 17:43:59 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 02:43:35 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Post by Rod Speed
Which car model and year ?
02:43 am in Australia??? LMAO! Did you get out of bed just to ask that
question, you forsaken senile troll from Australia? LOL
--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/rod-speed-faq.2973853/
Grikbasterd®™
2019-09-10 18:28:27 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 19:43:59 +0200, Foreskin Peeler
<***@valid.invalid> wrote:

[FLUHS Grik skata]...and better air in here again! [sic][SIC!!! LOL]

Watch, it geezer!

MEAN WHILE, YOU have been known to stay up until 2 am STALKING this
latest BENEFICIARY of your DEMENTED AUTISTIC OBSESSIONS! And missing
your nightly GREEKING as a RESULT!

Such a hypocrisy already!
Peeler
2019-09-10 18:48:41 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:28:27 -0700, clinically insane, pedophilic, serbian
bitch Razovic, the resident psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous
Post by Grikbasterd®™
[FLUHS Grik skata]...and better air in here again! [sic][SIC!!! LOL]
Watch, it geezer!
MEAN WHILE, YOU have been known to stay up until 2 am STALKING this
latest BENEFICIARY of your DEMENTED AUTISTIC OBSESSIONS! And missing
your nightly GREEKING as a RESULT!
Such a hypocrisy already!
LOL Just HOW do you manage to sound like a clinically insane nutter ALL of
the time, Retardovic? What's your secret?

Is it because you ARE clinically insane? As if we didn't know it, eh, serb
peasant? ROTFLOL
--
Pedophilic dreckserb Razovic answering a question whether there
is any meaningful debate to lower the age of consent:
"If there isn't, there should be."
MID: <ZAMUE.174724$***@usenetxs.com>
NEMO
2019-09-10 19:49:09 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 11:28:27 -0700, Grikbasterd®?
Post by Grikbasterd®™
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 19:43:59 +0200, Foreskin Peeler
[FLUHS Grik skata]...and better air in here again! [sic][SIC!!! LOL]
Watch, it geezer!
MEAN WHILE, YOU have been known to stay up until 2 am STALKING this
latest BENEFICIARY of your DEMENTED AUTISTIC OBSESSIONS! And missing
your nightly GREEKING as a RESULT!
Such a hypocrisy already!
Simply UNBELIEBABLE!
Peeler
2019-09-10 21:26:00 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 12:49:09 -0700, clinically insane, pedophilic, serbian
bitch Razovic, the resident psychopath of sci and scj and Usenet's famous
Post by NEMO
Simply UNBELIEBABLE!
Your idiocy certainly is, pedophilic gay Razovic!
--
Pedophilic dreckserb Razovic arguing in favour of pedophilia, again:
"There will always be progressives such as Harriet Harperson who want to
take that extra step forward. Paedophiles are still a long way from
being widely accepted."
MID: <rlMUE.676067$***@usenetxs.com>
dennis@home
2019-09-09 20:30:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce
the downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles?
Expensive safety systems that make only a little difference to
safety, but render vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight
damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and
get them through the approvals with fundementally differen designs.
Its one thing swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something
else to build a new car from the ground up.
but it does mean that we can say "a not working thingamajig is no
longer an MOT failure"
I just had to scrap a car because some functionally unnecessary, but
mandatory, additional thingy broke and cost more to replace than the
car was worth.
Want to say what it was?
some emission sensor or other
the actual emissions were fine, it was just the sensor that was buggerd
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we
are abussing the WTO system.
That would be charging differential tariffs (which are legal, but
have to be justified)
simply setting a high tariff for all, is not an abuse of the system
Post by ***@home
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and
then take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
No we didn't
Of course we did, why don't we have VAT on childrens cloths when the
rest of the EU does?
because the rule don't mandate that we put VAT on these items
just that we may, and that once we have doen so we can't take it off
Post by ***@home
Why didn't we have VAT on energy until the UK government decided that
a carbon tax was a good idea and used VAT to collect it?
because we didn't have to put VAT on fuel until HMG needed the extra income
Post by ***@home
You really do talk cock.
So says the class clown
So says the class fool.
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
the rules were already in place when we joined.
Post by ***@home
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
but the rules says that once we put it on (a new category) we cannot
take it off again
So, we still put it on not the EU.
voluntarily, not because they told us to
You are catching on, soon you will understand that the EU doesn't do
half of what you claim.
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they
are about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
Highly skilled workers (with a job offer) or joining family members
to be supported by the family already here
Almost none of the ROW immigration comes here to take up minimum wage
work and scrounge on the welfare state.
yet elderly parents are allowed in and get OAP and benefits.
no they aren't, because they wont have paid enough in to get a pension
So they get pension credits instead.
Post by tim...
tim
Steve Walker
2019-09-09 16:38:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce
the downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles?
Expensive safety systems that make only a little difference to
safety, but render vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight
damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and get
them through the approvals with fundementally differen designs. Its
one thing swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something else
to build a new car from the ground up.
but it does mean that we can say "a not working thingamajig is no
longer an MOT failure"
I just had to scrap a car because some functionally unnecessary, but
mandatory, additional thingy broke and cost more to replace than the
car was worth.
Want to say what it was?
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we
are abussing the WTO system.
That would be charging differential tariffs (which are legal, but have
to be justified)
simply setting a high tariff for all, is not an abuse of the system
Post by ***@home
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and
then take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
No we didn't
Of course we did, why don't we have VAT on childrens cloths when the
rest of the EU does?
Why didn't we have VAT on energy until the UK government decided that a
carbon tax was a good idea and used VAT to collect it?
You really do talk cock.
Post by tim...
the rules were already in place when we joined.
Post by ***@home
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
but the rules says that once we put it on (a new category) we cannot
take it off again
So, we still put it on not the EU.
What does that matter, the simple fact that we cannot choose to take it
off show that it is under EU and not UK control.
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they are
about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
Highly skilled workers (with a job offer) or joining family members to
be supported by the family already here
Almost none of the ROW immigration comes here to take up minimum wage
work and scrounge on the welfare state.
yet elderly parents are allowed in and get OAP and benefits.
You can't even bring spouses in from RoW without showing that you can
support them!

SteveW
dennis@home
2019-09-09 20:34:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce
the downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles?
Expensive safety systems that make only a little difference to
safety, but render vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight
damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and
get them through the approvals with fundementally differen designs.
Its one thing swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something
else to build a new car from the ground up.
but it does mean that we can say "a not working thingamajig is no
longer an MOT failure"
I just had to scrap a car because some functionally unnecessary, but
mandatory, additional thingy broke and cost more to replace than the
car was worth.
Want to say what it was?
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we
are abussing the WTO system.
That would be charging differential tariffs (which are legal, but
have to be justified)
simply setting a high tariff for all, is not an abuse of the system
Post by ***@home
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and
then take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
No we didn't
Of course we did, why don't we have VAT on childrens cloths when the
rest of the EU does?
Why didn't we have VAT on energy until the UK government decided that
a carbon tax was a good idea and used VAT to collect it?
You really do talk cock.
Post by tim...
the rules were already in place when we joined.
Post by ***@home
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
but the rules says that once we put it on (a new category) we cannot
take it off again
So, we still put it on not the EU.
What does that matter, the simple fact that we cannot choose to take it
off show that it is under EU and not UK control.
The UK still sets the rate.
Post by Steve Walker
Post by ***@home
Post by tim...
Post by ***@home
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they
are about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
Highly skilled workers (with a job offer) or joining family members
to be supported by the family already here
Almost none of the ROW immigration comes here to take up minimum wage
work and scrounge on the welfare state.
yet elderly parents are allowed in and get OAP and benefits.
You can't even bring spouses in from RoW without showing that you can
support them!
Its been happening for years.
Steve Walker
2019-09-09 16:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles?
Expensive safety systems that make only a little difference to safety,
but render vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and get
them through the approvals with fundementally differen designs. Its one
thing swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something else to
build a new car from the ground up.
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we are
abussing the WTO system.
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and then
take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
"Under EU rules, countries must apply a minimum standard VAT rate of
15%. They have an option of applying one or two reduced rates, no lower
than 5%, to certain specified goods on a pre-approved list.
Further reduction of the VAT rate, including to 0%, is also allowed but
only for the goods which were taxed at that rate before 1991 and since then.
Changes to the VAT rules require unanimous agreement of all 28 EU
countries."

So we cannot decide what we want to do.

We can ask, but it takes time and needs unanimous approval - how long
has it been since the fuss about sanitary products ... and although we
have managed to reduce it to 5%, we still cannot zero rate it.
Post by ***@home
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they are
about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
If we tighten non-EU immigration, EU immigration goes up to compensate.
Once we can control immigration from the EU, we can have a proper system
- including tax incentives to train UK citizens rather than importing
workers. We can also then peoperly hold governments to account, as ALL
immigration will be under their control.
Post by ***@home
And the list goes on.
And like all brexiteers you have chosen a set that are not implimented
by the EU but by the UK government, its almost as though brexiteers
don't have a clue.
Yes VAT was put on goods by UK governments, but it is the EU rules that
form a ratchet mechanism where once anything has VAT added, you can
never remove it. With VAT under our control, we could decide to zero
rate certain items - without outside interference.
Post by ***@home
Yes we can make our own laws - but only if they don't contradict EU
laws or no EU country feels that that law affects their companies more
than others. Look at the ridiculous case of Scotland and now Wales
wanting to introduce a minimum per unit price for alcohol and it being
held up as a number of countries contest it as a restriction of trade.
Yes just look at it.. Scotland do have a minimum price for alcohol so
thats another brexiteer talking cock.
And it took years of going through the courts first, both in the UK and
the ECJ - but in both, it was EU law that was being used to try and stop it.

SteveW
dennis@home
2019-09-09 20:41:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Post by ***@home
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce
the downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles?
Expensive safety systems that make only a little difference to
safety, but render vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight
damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and get
them through the approvals with fundementally differen designs. Its
one thing swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something else
to build a new car from the ground up.
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we
are abussing the WTO system.
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and
then take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
"Under EU rules, countries must apply a minimum standard VAT rate of
15%. They have an option of applying one or two reduced rates, no lower
than 5%, to certain specified goods on a pre-approved list.
Further reduction of the VAT rate, including to 0%, is also allowed but
only for the goods which were taxed at that rate before 1991 and since then.
Changes to the VAT rules require unanimous agreement of all 28 EU
countries."
So we cannot decide what we want to do.
We can ask, but it takes time and needs unanimous approval - how long
has it been since the fuss about sanitary products ... and although we
have managed to reduce it to 5%, we still cannot zero rate it.
We didn't have to put VAT on in the first place.
Post by Steve Walker
Post by ***@home
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they are
about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
If we tighten non-EU immigration, EU immigration goes up to compensate.
Once we can control immigration from the EU, we can have a proper system
- including tax incentives to train UK citizens rather than importing
workers. We can also then peoperly hold governments to account, as ALL
immigration will be under their control.
You seriously think training the UK citizens to wash cars and stuff will
make a difference?
Post by Steve Walker
Post by ***@home
And the list goes on.
And like all brexiteers you have chosen a set that are not implimented
by the EU but by the UK government, its almost as though brexiteers
don't have a clue.
Yes VAT was put on goods by UK governments, but it is the EU rules that
form a ratchet mechanism where once anything has VAT added, you can
never remove it. With VAT under our control, we could decide to zero
rate certain items - without outside interference.
We could, but we didn't have to put VAT on in the first place.
Post by Steve Walker
Post by ***@home
Yes we can make our own laws - but only if they don't contradict EU
laws or no EU country feels that that law affects their companies
more than others. Look at the ridiculous case of Scotland and now
Wales wanting to introduce a minimum per unit price for alcohol and
it being held up as a number of countries contest it as a restriction
of trade.
Yes just look at it.. Scotland do have a minimum price for alcohol so
thats another brexiteer talking cock.
And it took years of going through the courts first, both in the UK and
the ECJ - but in both, it was EU law that was being used to try and stop it.
SteveW
The ECJ didn't take years they referred it back to the UK courts, it was
the UK courts and the whiskey producers that delayed it.
tim...
2019-09-10 10:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@home
Post by ***@home
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles?
Expensive safety systems that make only a little difference to safety,
but render vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and get
them through the approvals with fundementally differen designs. Its one
thing swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something else to
build a new car from the ground up.
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we are
abussing the WTO system.
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and then
take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
"Under EU rules, countries must apply a minimum standard VAT rate of 15%.
They have an option of applying one or two reduced rates, no lower than
5%, to certain specified goods on a pre-approved list.
Further reduction of the VAT rate, including to 0%, is also allowed but
only for the goods which were taxed at that rate before 1991 and since then.
Changes to the VAT rules require unanimous agreement of all 28 EU
countries."
So we cannot decide what we want to do.
We can ask, but it takes time and needs unanimous approval - how long has
it been since the fuss about sanitary products ... and although we have
managed to reduce it to 5%, we still cannot zero rate it.
We didn't have to put VAT on in the first place.
but the government finances were fucked and it needed the money

so it did

tim
Post by ***@home
Post by ***@home
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't and they are
about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
If we tighten non-EU immigration, EU immigration goes up to compensate.
Once we can control immigration from the EU, we can have a proper
system - including tax incentives to train UK citizens rather than
importing workers. We can also then peoperly hold governments to account,
as ALL immigration will be under their control.
You seriously think training the UK citizens to wash cars and stuff will
make a difference?
Post by ***@home
And the list goes on.
And like all brexiteers you have chosen a set that are not implimented
by the EU but by the UK government, its almost as though brexiteers
don't have a clue.
Yes VAT was put on goods by UK governments, but it is the EU rules that
form a ratchet mechanism where once anything has VAT added, you can never
remove it. With VAT under our control, we could decide to zero rate
certain items - without outside interference.
We could, but we didn't have to put VAT on in the first place.
Post by ***@home
Yes we can make our own laws - but only if they don't contradict EU
laws or no EU country feels that that law affects their companies more
than others. Look at the ridiculous case of Scotland and now Wales
wanting to introduce a minimum per unit price for alcohol and it being
held up as a number of countries contest it as a restriction of trade.
Yes just look at it.. Scotland do have a minimum price for alcohol so
thats another brexiteer talking cock.
And it took years of going through the courts first, both in the UK and
the ECJ - but in both, it was EU law that was being used to try and stop it.
SteveW
The ECJ didn't take years they referred it back to the UK courts, it was
the UK courts and the whiskey producers that delayed it.
Rod Speed
2019-09-09 22:48:34 UTC
Permalink
What’s the point of all of this, Brian? What do you people genuinely
believe we’re going to gain from all this upheaval and madness?
Freedom to make our own choices, set our own laws, hold our own
government to account for allowing large numbers of immigrants
overloading already limited resources and infrastructure, reduce the
downward pressure on low-end wages.
We don't seem to have any difficulties setting our own laws. Hasn't
Parliament has just set one (subject to Royal assent on Monday)?
Can we decide on whether we want tracking in our new vehicles? Expensive
safety systems that make only a little difference to safety, but render
vehicles uneconomic to repair after only slight damage?
Probably not as it will be uneconomicto produce many variants and get them
through the approvals with fundementally differen designs. Its one thing
swapping an engine or a few body panels, its something else to build a new
car from the ground up.
To reduce or raise import tariffs on certain goods?
Probably, but it depends. Others can raise disputes if they think we are
abussing the WTO system.
At what level VAT should be set?
The UK government has set the VAT rates on everything.
The EU just has a rule that says you can't put VAT on something and then
take it off willynilly.
Whether any VAT is due on particular goods?
The UK government negotiated what we were putting VAT on.
It was the UK government that put VAT on electricity and gas not the EU.
To control immigration?
We might be able to, we can now for immigrants but don't
The UK does actually.
and they are about 60% of the net migration into the UK.
Peeler
2019-09-09 22:50:38 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 10 Sep 2019 08:48:34 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Post by Rod Speed
The UK does actually.
The UK? NONE of yours, senile Ozzie pest!
--
***@down.the.farm about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID: <ps10v9$uo2$***@gioia.aioe.org>
Steve Walker
2019-09-09 16:10:11 UTC
Permalink
Look at the ridiculous case of Scotland and now Wales wanting to
introduce a minimum per unit price for alcohol and it being held up as a
number of countries contest it as a restriction of trade.
Scotland introduced a minimum price per unit of alcohol ages ago. That's
why illegal drug use has increased there.
2018 actually.

Although there were objections from the Scottish Whisky Association and
court cases, there were also objections from Spain, Italy, Portugal,
France and Bulgaria - which meant that the European Compaints Commission
proceedings were extended by at least another year - ie EU countries
were allowed to use EU law to object to what should be a country's
purely internal laws.

Even the cases heard in the UK were bounced to and from the ECJ and
centred on EU law. That all added years of delay.

SteveW
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-09 18:18:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Look at the ridiculous case of Scotland and now Wales wanting to
introduce a minimum per unit price for alcohol and it being held up as a
number of countries contest it as a restriction of trade.
Scotland introduced a minimum price per unit of alcohol ages ago. That's
why illegal drug use has increased there.
2018 actually.
Although there were objections from the Scottish Whisky Association and
court cases, there were also objections from Spain, Italy, Portugal,
France and Bulgaria - which meant that the European Compaints Commission
proceedings were extended by at least another year - ie EU countries
were allowed to use EU law to object to what should be a country's
purely internal laws.
Even the cases heard in the UK were bounced to and from the ECJ and
centred on EU law. That all added years of delay.
And was won when Scotland pointed out (as if it wasn't obvious) that it
had nothing to do with trade, but health.
--
*I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Steve Walker
2019-09-09 21:49:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
Post by Steve Walker
Look at the ridiculous case of Scotland and now Wales wanting to
introduce a minimum per unit price for alcohol and it being held up as a
number of countries contest it as a restriction of trade.
Scotland introduced a minimum price per unit of alcohol ages ago. That's
why illegal drug use has increased there.
2018 actually.
Although there were objections from the Scottish Whisky Association and
court cases, there were also objections from Spain, Italy, Portugal,
France and Bulgaria - which meant that the European Compaints Commission
proceedings were extended by at least another year - ie EU countries
were allowed to use EU law to object to what should be a country's
purely internal laws.
Even the cases heard in the UK were bounced to and from the ECJ and
centred on EU law. That all added years of delay.
And was won when Scotland pointed out (as if it wasn't obvious) that it
had nothing to do with trade, but health.
But it is not about whether Scotland was allowed to do it or not. The
simple fact that EU law even had to be considered for an internal
matter, giving rise to years of delay is the problem.

SteveW
Dave Plowman (News)
2019-09-10 10:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Walker
Post by Dave Plowman (News)
And was won when Scotland pointed out (as if it wasn't obvious) that it
had nothing to do with trade, but health.
But it is not about whether Scotland was allowed to do it or not. The
simple fact that EU law even had to be considered for an internal
matter, giving rise to years of delay is the problem.
I take it you don't like the rule of law? Prefer to just observe those
that suit you?

The same sort of delays could have happened with only UK courts.
--
*I'm pretty sure that sex is better than logic, but I can't prove it.

Dave Plowman ***@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
dennis@home
2019-09-10 17:27:42 UTC
Permalink
On 09/09/2019 22:49, Steve Walker wrote:
8<
Post by Steve Walker
But it is not about whether Scotland was allowed to do it or not. The
simple fact that EU law even had to be considered for an internal
matter, giving rise to years of delay is the problem.
But it didn't cause years of delay!

The UK courts caused years of delay.
Post by Steve Walker
SteveW
Roger
2019-09-11 10:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Having both side of an open border in the SM does NOT stop rogue
companies from exporting non-compliant goods across that border.
As has been shown several times (the most egregious of which was
Horse Meat).
But at least it is EU horse meat. And conforms to EU regs.
That is the issue, EU regs.
Not chlorinated chicken from a country which thinks it perfectly OK
to murder innocents.
Do you drink chlorinated water? I'm sure labelling will make this a
feature even if becomes allowed.
No. I use charcoal filters. Ooops, have you bent your brain?
The UK does a good job of bombing innocents too, plus the occasional
summary execution.
Chlorine is a gas and evaporates. If there is any left trapped somewhere in your chicken it would evaporate on cooking.

The reason the EU does not approve use of chlorine is because it can conceal dirty abatoirs and as the EU have limited means of actually making 'secret' random raids on some of the far flung places (which are allowed to export uncontrolled to anywhere in EU) then they are in a bit of a corner.
Roger
2019-09-11 10:05:52 UTC
Permalink
With Corbyn's late rejection of a GE now nullified by Labour's 'no-deal'
Act, why should Corbyn not go for it? Oh....the polls are against
him.... So what excuse will he field tomorrow?
--
Spike
He is going to say there should be a referendum first, where his de facto majority get to write the possible responses, which will only allow options they approve of (Remain or Remain in all but name).

They expect the plebs to buy that.

I'm expecting riots in the streets and the UK looking more like HK if they actually have the gall to try it.
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