Discussion:
Brexit ministers out of touch with reality
Add Reply
Pamela
2019-08-10 06:59:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778


There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to patrol
fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a government
department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.

The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three times
the size of the surface area of the UK".

The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs was discussing media stories.

But ministers said they are confident security will be enforced after
Brexit.
Norman Wells
2019-08-10 07:51:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to patrol
fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a government
department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three times
the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be enforced after
Brexit.
Excellent news then.
abelard
2019-08-10 08:17:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to patrol
fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a government
department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three times
the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be enforced after
Brexit.
so now you're claiming the eussr are pirates with no regard for the
law
so as an appeaser, you want to submit to them....
--
www.abelard.org
g***@googlemail.com
2019-08-10 12:27:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to patrol
fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a government
department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three times
the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be enforced after
Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at all ports.

Teresa May and Phillip Hammond, if not immune, should be prosecuted for malfeasance in public office.
JNugent
2019-08-10 14:59:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to patrol
fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a government
department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three times
the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be enforced after
Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at all ports.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
g***@googlemail.com
2019-08-11 11:16:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to patrol
fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a government
department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three times
the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be enforced after
Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at all ports.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at Dover even when we're in a Customs union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with space and facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days, if necessary.
JNugent
2019-08-11 11:45:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to patrol
fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a government
department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three times
the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be enforced after
Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at all ports.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at Dover even when we're in a Customs union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with space and facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days, if necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).

The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
Pamela
2019-08-11 17:19:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to
patrol fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a
government department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three
times the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and
Rural Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be enforced
after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime
patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at all
ports.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at Dover even when we're in a Customs
union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with space and
facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days, if necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time required
for border checks?

It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will be plenty
of queuing all right.
Post by JNugent
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
Joe
2019-08-11 17:47:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 18:19:00 +0100
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol
'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to
patrol fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a
government department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space
three times the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and
Rural Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be
enforced after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime
patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at
all ports.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at Dover even when we're in a Customs
union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with space and
facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days, if
necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain
passes and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain
the required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time
required for border checks?
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will be
plenty of queuing all right.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/08/11/no-deal-lorry-mayhem-dover-calais-cest-la-bullsh-replies-french/
--
Joe
JNugent
2019-08-11 23:27:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to
patrol fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a
government department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three
times the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and
Rural Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be enforced
after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime
patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at all
ports.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at Dover even when we're in a Customs
union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with space and
facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days, if necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time required
for border checks?
Nothing.

Hull might have the same facilities for all that I know. But I've never
been there so can't say. The Seaforth Docks (north end of Liverpool) is
another port facility which I know has plentiful waiting facilities.
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will be plenty
of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same with the
Shuttle trains.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
Pamela
2019-08-12 17:59:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol
'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to
patrol fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a
government department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space
three times the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and
Rural Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be
enforced after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime
patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at all
ports.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at Dover even when we're in a Customs
union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with space and
facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days, if necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain
passes and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain
the required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time
required for border checks?
Nothing.
Hull might have the same facilities for all that I know. But I've never
been there so can't say. The Seaforth Docks (north end of Liverpool) is
another port facility which I know has plentiful waiting facilities.
What use are those docks for cross channel trade, which is what you were
talking about?
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will be
plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same with the
Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be after
Brexit.
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike
conditions.
JNugent
2019-08-12 19:16:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol
'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to
patrol fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a
government department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space
three times the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food and
Rural Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be
enforced after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime
patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at all
ports.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at Dover even when we're in a Customs
union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with space and
facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days, if necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain
passes and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain
the required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time
required for border checks?
Nothing.
Hull might have the same facilities for all that I know. But I've never
been there so can't say. The Seaforth Docks (north end of Liverpool) is
another port facility which I know has plentiful waiting facilities.
What use are those docks for cross channel trade, which is what you were
talking about?
Dover is an almost-exclusively cross-Channel port. That is true. It also
happens to be the port with which I am (these days) most familiar. But
other ports exist, notably Liverpool (with which I am still reasonably
familiar). Not all of the UK's trade is conducted directly across the
English Channel. Some comes internationally and even inter-continentally
to Liverpool, Southampton and Hull. Maybe to other mainland ports as
well. But I can't answer as to the availability of extensive queuing
facilities in most of those because I don't know them well enough.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will be
plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same with the
Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be after
Brexit.
Have you read the recent remarks of the boss of the Port of Calais?
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike
conditions.
Pamela
2019-08-12 20:40:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol
'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity
to patrol fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo
from a government department mistakenly emailed to the
BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space
three times the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food
and Rural Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be
enforced after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime
patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at
all ports.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at Dover even when we're in a Customs
union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with space and
facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days, if
necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain
passes and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain
the required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time
required for border checks?
Nothing. Hull might have the same facilities for all that I know. But
I've never been there so can't say. The Seaforth Docks (north end of
Liverpool) is another port facility which I know has plentiful waiting
facilities.
What use are those docks for cross channel trade, which is what you
were talking about?
Dover is an almost-exclusively cross-Channel port. That is true. It also
happens to be the port with which I am (these days) most familiar. But
other ports exist, notably Liverpool (with which I am still reasonably
familiar). Not all of the UK's trade is conducted directly across the
English Channel. Some comes internationally and even inter-continentally
to Liverpool, Southampton and Hull. Maybe to other mainland ports as
well. But I can't answer as to the availability of extensive queuing
facilities in most of those because I don't know them well enough.
The cross Channel trade is exclusvely cross Channel. Surely you weren't
talking about Liverpool or Hull about when you wrote this.

"The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space"
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will be
plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same with the
Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be after
Brexit.
Have you read the recent remarks of the boss of the Port of Calais?
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for
space than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike
conditions.
JNugent
2019-08-12 23:22:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol
'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity
to patrol fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo
from a government department mistakenly emailed to the
BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space
three times the size of the surface area of the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food
and Rural Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be
enforced after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more maritime
patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs facilities at
***all ports***.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at ***Dover*** even when we're in a
Customs union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with
space and facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days,
if necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain
passes and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain
the required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time
required for border checks?
Nothing. Hull might have the same facilities for all that I know. But
I've never been there so can't say. The Seaforth Docks (north end of
Liverpool) is another port facility which I know has plentiful waiting
facilities.
What use are those docks for cross channel trade, which is what you
were talking about?
Dover is an almost-exclusively cross-Channel port. That is true. It also
happens to be the port with which I am (these days) most familiar. But
other ports exist, notably Liverpool (with which I am still reasonably
familiar). Not all of the UK's trade is conducted directly across the
English Channel. Some comes internationally and even inter-continentally
to Liverpool, Southampton and Hull. Maybe to other mainland ports as
well. But I can't answer as to the availability of extensive queuing
facilities in most of those because I don't know them well enough.
The cross Channel trade is exclusvely cross Channel. Surely you weren't
talking about Liverpool or Hull about when you wrote this.
"The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space"
I was not limiting my remarks overall to the Channel ports.

I responded to a post about "all ports" (see my asterisked emphasis some
way above) and a specfic one about Dover (ditto). I had already asked
the PP how he knew (if he knew) that there were no facilities at "all
ports".
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will be
plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same with the
Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be after
Brexit.
Have you read the recent remarks of the boss of the Port of Calais?
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know. And for ocean-going traffic, much of that is already
to and from locations which are not in the EU.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for
space than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike
conditions.
Ian Jackson
2019-08-13 07:19:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the Belgium-Holland
border there was even a 'village' where the truckers had to divert to to
have their paperwork dealt with by customs agents. Oh happy days!
--
Ian
Pamela
2019-08-13 09:32:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the Belgium-Holland
border there was even a 'village' where the truckers had to divert to to
have their paperwork dealt with by customs agents. Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were appalling.
You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably meant you needed to
arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks, adding to the congestion, until
it departed. It was a miserable experience every time.
JNugent
2019-08-13 09:37:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the Belgium-Holland
border there was even a 'village' where the truckers had to divert to to
have their paperwork dealt with by customs agents. Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were appalling.
You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably meant you needed to
arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks, adding to the congestion, until
it departed. It was a miserable experience every time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That has
never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on "rack
rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.

You must know that.
Pamela
2019-08-13 13:29:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the truckers
had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by customs agents.
Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were
appalling. You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably meant
you needed to arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks, adding to the
congestion, until it departed. It was a miserable experience every
time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That has
never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on "rack
rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.
You must know that.
Let me spell it out .... queues are almost inevitable and when there is more
traffic the queues will be greater.
JNugent
2019-08-13 15:35:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the truckers
had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by customs agents.
Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were
appalling. You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably meant
you needed to arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks, adding to the
congestion, until it departed. It was a miserable experience every
time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That has
never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on "rack
rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.
You must know that.
Let me spell it out .... queues are almost inevitable and when there is more
traffic the queues will be greater.
At Dover (and at its opposite number ports in France and Belgium), there
are queues every day, 24/7, right now, and always have been. That's the
nature of travelling by ship and being marshalled by security staff. And
just to be clear, there are queues at Cheriton for the Channel tunnel as
well.

What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic will
increase after the UK leaves the EU?
Pamela
2019-08-13 20:09:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the truckers
had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by customs
agents. Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were
appalling. You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably
meant you needed to arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks,
adding to the congestion, until it departed. It was a miserable
experience every time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That has
never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on "rack
rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.
You must know that.
Let me spell it out .... queues are almost inevitable and when there is
more traffic the queues will be greater.
At Dover (and at its opposite number ports in France and Belgium), there
are queues every day, 24/7, right now, and always have been. That's the
nature of travelling by ship and being marshalled by security staff. And
just to be clear, there are queues at Cheriton for the Channel tunnel as
well.
What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic will
increase after the UK leaves the EU?
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claining it won't?
Ian Jackson
2019-08-13 20:52:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the truckers
had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by customs
agents. Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were
appalling. You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably
meant you needed to arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks,
adding to the congestion, until it departed. It was a miserable
experience every time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That has
never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on "rack
rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.
You must know that.
Let me spell it out .... queues are almost inevitable and when there is
more traffic the queues will be greater.
At Dover (and at its opposite number ports in France and Belgium), there
are queues every day, 24/7, right now, and always have been. That's the
nature of travelling by ship and being marshalled by security staff. And
just to be clear, there are queues at Cheriton for the Channel tunnel as
well.
What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic will
increase after the UK leaves the EU?
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claining it won't?
Ciaran the Euro Courier certainly thinks it will. But hell, what does HE
know about such things!
http://tinyurl.com/y69rr8xc
--
Ian
Andy Walker
2019-08-13 22:51:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic will
increase after the UK leaves the EU?
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claining it won't?
There's no particularly compelling reason why it should. The
usual process with things like customs checks is that most cars/lorries
are waved through and a proportion are checked more carefully. You
can adjust the average delay by adjusting the proportion.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Pamela
2019-08-15 10:30:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Walker
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic will
increase after the UK leaves the EU?
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claining it won't?
There's no particularly compelling reason why it should. The
usual process with things like customs checks is that most cars/lorries
are waved through and a proportion are checked more carefully. You
can adjust the average delay by adjusting the proportion.
Honestly Andy, get real. Checks after Brexit are not going to be the same as
the before.
Andy Walker
2019-08-15 19:11:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 15/08/2019 11:30, Pamela wrote:
[To JN:]
Post by Pamela
Post by Andy Walker
Post by Pamela
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claining it won't?
There's no particularly compelling reason why it should. The
usual process with things like customs checks is that most cars/lorries
are waved through and a proportion are checked more carefully. You
can adjust the average delay by adjusting the proportion.
Honestly Andy, get real. Checks after Brexit are not going to be the same as
the before.
No doubt. But not the checks that normally cause delays at the
port -- eg, searching the lorry for illegal goods or immigrants, and
checking that the contents match the paperwork. Others have pointed
out that the paperwork itself is normally handled elsewhere, not on
arrival at the port. If there are minor changes in the procedures,
with corresponding minor changes in delays, then, as above, that can
be handled by waving [or, as some correspondents are quaintly putting
is, "waiving"] through more or fewer of the lorries.

Of course, it is always possible that either the authorities
or other groups [ferry operators, drivers, fishermen, ...] will take
steps to block or delay operations -- the French are particularly
good at protesting in ingenious ways -- but that doesn't seem to be
the sort of delay you are talking about. After all, France is not
an enemy of the UK. [Nor, for that matter, is RoI.] If that changes,
then all bets are off, but it seems a remote possibility ATM.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Pamela
2019-08-15 19:17:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Walker
[To JN:]
Post by Pamela
Post by Andy Walker
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claiming it won't?
There's no particularly compelling reason why it should. The
usual process with things like customs checks is that most
cars/lorries are waved through and a proportion are checked more
carefully. You can adjust the average delay by adjusting the
proportion.
Honestly Andy, get real. Checks after Brexit are not going to be the
same as the before.
No doubt. But not the checks that normally cause delays at the
port -- eg, searching the lorry for illegal goods or immigrants, and
checking that the contents match the paperwork. Others have pointed
out that the paperwork itself is normally handled elsewhere, not on
arrival at the port. If there are minor changes in the procedures,
with corresponding minor changes in delays, then, as above, that can
be handled by waving [or, as some correspondents are quaintly putting
is, "waiving"] through more or fewer of the lorries.
Of course, it is always possible that either the authorities
or other groups [ferry operators, drivers, fishermen, ...] will take
steps to block or delay operations -- the French are particularly
good at protesting in ingenious ways -- but that doesn't seem to be
the sort of delay you are talking about. After all, France is not
an enemy of the UK. [Nor, for that matter, is RoI.] If that changes,
then all bets are off, but it seems a remote possibility ATM.
Andy. you do write some addled nonsense and that is pretty poor even by your
already low standard.

By your reckoning the UK govt has wasted time and money building all the
extra queing space. You should have told them you knew the magic answer
before they started.
Andy Walker
2019-08-16 13:20:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 15/08/2019 20:17, Pamela wrote:
[...]
Post by Pamela
Post by Andy Walker
Post by Pamela
Honestly Andy, get real. Checks after Brexit are not going to be the
same as the before.
No doubt. But not the checks that normally cause delays at the
port -- eg, searching the lorry for illegal goods or immigrants, and
checking that the contents match the paperwork. Others have pointed
out that the paperwork itself is normally handled elsewhere, not on
arrival at the port. [...]
Andy. you do write some addled nonsense and that is pretty poor even by your
already low standard.
We can have a debate or an abusefest. Your choice, but if it's
the latter, you will be doing so on your own.
Post by Pamela
By your reckoning the UK govt has wasted time and money building all the
extra queing space. You should have told them you knew the magic answer
before they started.
That's not my reckoning. At that time, there seemed to be fears
that in the event of no deal, the ferries and other trade would stop dead
at the moment of Brexit, until some agreement had been sorted out. It
made sense to be prepared, however inadequately, for that. That's quite
different from on-going delays allegedly to be caused by changes in the
paperwork and other checks, which are what I was addressing, and what
you too seemed to be addressing.
--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.
Pamela
2019-08-17 11:54:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andy Walker
[...]
Post by Pamela
Post by Andy Walker
Post by Pamela
Honestly Andy, get real. Checks after Brexit are not going to be the
same as the before.
No doubt. But not the checks that normally cause delays at the
port -- eg, searching the lorry for illegal goods or immigrants, and
checking that the contents match the paperwork. Others have pointed
out that the paperwork itself is normally handled elsewhere, not on
arrival at the port. [...]
Andy. you do write some addled nonsense and that is pretty poor even by
your already low standard.
We can have a debate or an abusefest. Your choice, but if it's
the latter, you will be doing so on your own.
Post by Pamela
By your reckoning the UK govt has wasted time and money building all
the extra queing space. You should have told them you knew the magic
answer before they started.
That's not my reckoning. At that time, there seemed to be fears
that in the event of no deal, the ferries and other trade would stop
dead at the moment of Brexit, until some agreement had been sorted out.
It made sense to be prepared, however inadequately, for that. That's
quite different from on-going delays allegedly to be caused by changes
in the paperwork and other checks, which are what I was addressing, and
what you too seemed to be addressing.
You wrote addled nonsense and are now referring to your addled nonsense but
that doesn't make it any less addled or nonsensical.

JNugent
2019-08-14 16:45:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the truckers
had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by customs
agents. Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were
appalling. You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably
meant you needed to arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks,
adding to the congestion, until it departed. It was a miserable
experience every time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That has
never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on "rack
rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.
You must know that.
Let me spell it out .... queues are almost inevitable and when there is
more traffic the queues will be greater.
At Dover (and at its opposite number ports in France and Belgium), there
are queues every day, 24/7, right now, and always have been. That's the
nature of travelling by ship and being marshalled by security staff. And
just to be clear, there are queues at Cheriton for the Channel tunnel as
well.
What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic will
increase after the UK leaves the EU?
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claining it won't?
I have no information to suggest a change in either direction (though I
wouldn't complain if there were further and more intensive checks on the
ciontents of lorries, which might be desirable in its own right).

Some people closer to the situation than you or I suggest that there is
no cause for concern.
Pamela
2019-08-15 10:41:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
On 08:19 13 Aug 2019, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the
Common Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the
truckers had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by
customs agents. Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were
appalling. You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably
meant you needed to arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks,
adding to the congestion, until it departed. It was a miserable
experience every time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That
has never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on
"rack rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.
You must know that.
Let me spell it out .... queues are almost inevitable and when there
is more traffic the queues will be greater.
At Dover (and at its opposite number ports in France and Belgium),
there are queues every day, 24/7, right now, and always have been.
That's the nature of travelling by ship and being marshalled by
security staff. And just to be clear, there are queues at Cheriton for
the Channel tunnel as well.
What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic will
increase after the UK leaves the EU?
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claiming it won't?
I have no information to suggest a change in either direction (though I
wouldn't complain if there were further and more intensive checks on the
contents of lorries, which might be desirable in its own right).
You parade your ignorance like a virtue. Those who do have such information
believe there will be greater delays.
Post by JNugent
Some people closer to the situation than you or I suggest that there is
no cause for concern.
Ideologically driven Brexiteers have indeed given many such glib assurances
but those who are tasked with planning for the forthcoming situation see it
differently.
JNugent
2019-08-15 12:02:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
On 08:19 13 Aug 2019, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK
ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the
Common Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the
truckers had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by
customs agents. Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were
appalling. You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably
meant you needed to arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks,
adding to the congestion, until it departed. It was a miserable
experience every time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That
has never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on
"rack rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.
You must know that.
Let me spell it out .... queues are almost inevitable and when there
is more traffic the queues will be greater.
At Dover (and at its opposite number ports in France and Belgium),
there are queues every day, 24/7, right now, and always have been.
That's the nature of travelling by ship and being marshalled by
security staff. And just to be clear, there are queues at Cheriton for
the Channel tunnel as well.
What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic will
increase after the UK leaves the EU?
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claiming it won't?
I have no information to suggest a change in either direction (though I
wouldn't complain if there were further and more intensive checks on the
contents of lorries, which might be desirable in its own right).
You parade your ignorance like a virtue. Those who do have such information
believe there will be greater delays.
Some say there won't. And since not even the ones who say there will be
more process at ports say what form that will take, it'd be difficult to
just accept that.

There's always the TIR system, of course. Remember that?
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Some people closer to the situation than you or I suggest that there is
no cause for concern.
Ideologically driven Brexiteers have indeed given many such glib assurances
but those who are tasked with planning for the forthcoming situation see it
differently.
Let's hear it - specifically and explicitly. What form are these mooted
delays going to take?
The Iceberg
2019-08-15 12:11:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
On 08:19 13 Aug 2019, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK
ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the
Common Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the
truckers had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by
customs agents. Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were
appalling. You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably
meant you needed to arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks,
adding to the congestion, until it departed. It was a miserable
experience every time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That
has never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on
"rack rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.
You must know that.
Let me spell it out .... queues are almost inevitable and when there
is more traffic the queues will be greater.
At Dover (and at its opposite number ports in France and Belgium),
there are queues every day, 24/7, right now, and always have been.
That's the nature of travelling by ship and being marshalled by
security staff. And just to be clear, there are queues at Cheriton for
the Channel tunnel as well.
What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic will
increase after the UK leaves the EU?
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claiming it won't?
I have no information to suggest a change in either direction (though I
wouldn't complain if there were further and more intensive checks on the
contents of lorries, which might be desirable in its own right).
You parade your ignorance like a virtue. Those who do have such information
believe there will be greater delays.
Some say there won't. And since not even the ones who say there will be
more process at ports say what form that will take, it'd be difficult to
just accept that.
There's always the TIR system, of course. Remember that?
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Some people closer to the situation than you or I suggest that there is
no cause for concern.
Ideologically driven Brexiteers have indeed given many such glib assurances
but those who are tasked with planning for the forthcoming situation see it
differently.
Let's hear it - specifically and explicitly. What form are these mooted
delays going to take?
Remoaners never give specifics cos their main reason for liking the EUSSR is emotional, not much else.
Pamela
2019-08-16 09:05:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
On 08:19 13 Aug 2019, Ian Jackson
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding
UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the
Common Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the
truckers had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by
customs agents. Oh happy days!
In those days the queues for vehicles to cross the Channel were
appalling. You had to book on a particular ferry which inevitably
meant you needed to arrive early and wait in forlorn car parks,
adding to the congestion, until it departed. It was a miserable
experience every time.
You *still* have to book specific ferries at specific times. That
has never changed. You take your chances - on availability and on
"rack rate" prices - if you just turn up unannounced.
You must know that.
Let me spell it out .... queues are almost inevitable and when
there is more traffic the queues will be greater.
At Dover (and at its opposite number ports in France and Belgium),
there are queues every day, 24/7, right now, and always have been.
That's the nature of travelling by ship and being marshalled by
security staff. And just to be clear, there are queues at Cheriton
for the Channel tunnel as well.
What reason do you have to take the view that volumes of traffic
will increase after the UK leaves the EU?
The delay per lorry will increase. Or are you claiming it won't?
I have no information to suggest a change in either direction (though
I wouldn't complain if there were further and more intensive checks on
the contents of lorries, which might be desirable in its own right).
You parade your ignorance like a virtue. Those who do have such
information believe there will be greater delays.
Some say there won't.
There's always an idiot. One posts to this thread and it's not me.
Post by JNugent
And since not even the ones who say there will be
more process at ports say what form that will take, it'd be difficult to
just accept that.
Lack of precision in a forecast does not mean its range of outcomes are
evenly split between two opposing outcomes.
Post by JNugent
There's always the TIR system, of course. Remember that?
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Some people closer to the situation than you or I suggest that there
is no cause for concern.
Ideologically driven Brexiteers have indeed given many such glib
assurances but those who are tasked with planning for the forthcoming
situation see it differently.
Let's hear it - specifically and explicitly. What form are these mooted
delays going to take?
The Institute of Government has produced "Implementing Brexit: Customs".
Border.

Endless industry groups, not only Just In Time manufacturers, who well know
how they would be affected paint a dire picture of delays.

It's laughable that the government is budgetting up to £20 billion for extra
customs costs and head-in-the-sand Brexiteers are pretending there's no extra
work needed and no extra delay.
abelard
2019-08-15 12:16:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Ideologically driven Brexiteers have indeed given many such glib assurances
but those who are tasked with planning for the forthcoming situation see it
differently.
they 'see' nothing....nothing has yet occurred
--
www.abelard.org
Roger
2019-08-15 12:21:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by abelard
Post by Pamela
Ideologically driven Brexiteers have indeed given many such glib assurances
but those who are tasked with planning for the forthcoming situation see it
differently.
they 'see' nothing....nothing has yet occurred
--
www.abelard.org
Oh, and here's me thinking they all had crystal balls,
JNugent
2019-08-13 09:33:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
 France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the Belgium-Holland
border there was even a 'village' where the truckers had to divert to to
have their paperwork dealt with by customs agents. Oh happy days!
French customs were - in those days - a legend and even a law unto
themselves.

As you rightly hint, knowledgeable lorry-driving car-ferry users
travelled via Ostend in order to avoid French customs. But that was
then, and today, France has to enforce EU rules, not French rules.
Ian Jackson
2019-08-13 12:47:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
 France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the truckers
had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by customs
agents. Oh happy days!
French customs were - in those days - a legend and even a law unto
themselves.
As you rightly hint, knowledgeable lorry-driving car-ferry users
travelled via Ostend in order to avoid French customs. But that was
then, and today, France has to enforce EU rules, not French rules.
Indeed. Regardless of what the boss of the Port of Calais says, the
French customs will have to apply the correct EU tariffs to imports from
the UK. Presumably they do have a cunning plan which will minimise
hold-ups and disruption to the flow of traffic (ie something quite
different from the 'good old days').
--
Ian
Roger
2019-08-14 17:25:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
Post by Ian Jackson
Post by JNugent
 France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
And the queues of lorries was a marvel to behold! On the
Belgium-Holland border there was even a 'village' where the truckers
had to divert to to have their paperwork dealt with by customs
agents. Oh happy days!
French customs were - in those days - a legend and even a law unto
themselves.
As you rightly hint, knowledgeable lorry-driving car-ferry users
travelled via Ostend in order to avoid French customs. But that was
then, and today, France has to enforce EU rules, not French rules.
Indeed. Regardless of what the boss of the Port of Calais says, the
French customs will have to apply the correct EU tariffs to imports from
the UK. Presumably they do have a cunning plan which will minimise
hold-ups and disruption to the flow of traffic (ie something quite
different from the 'good old days').
--
Ian
It's called 'TIR', you might have seen the label on the back of lorries :-)

Lorries declare goods to local customs offices near departure and arrival, they don't pay taxes as they cross the border.
Pamela
2019-08-13 09:29:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's
capacity to patrol fishing waters after a no-deal
Brexit, a memo from a government department mistakenly
emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a
space three times the size of the surface area of the
UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food
and Rural Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be
enforced after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more
maritime patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs
facilities at ***all ports***.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at ***Dover*** even when we're in a
Customs union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with
space and facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days,
if necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain
passes and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to
maintain the required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time
required for border checks?
Nothing. Hull might have the same facilities for all that I know.
But I've never been there so can't say. The Seaforth Docks (north
end of Liverpool) is another port facility which I know has
plentiful waiting facilities.
What use are those docks for cross channel trade, which is what you
were talking about?
Dover is an almost-exclusively cross-Channel port. That is true. It
also happens to be the port with which I am (these days) most
familiar. But other ports exist, notably Liverpool (with which I am
still reasonably familiar). Not all of the UK's trade is conducted
directly across the English Channel. Some comes internationally and
even inter-continentally to Liverpool, Southampton and Hull. Maybe to
other mainland ports as well. But I can't answer as to the
availability of extensive queuing facilities in most of those because
I don't know them well enough.
The cross Channel trade is exclusvely cross Channel. Surely you
weren't talking about Liverpool or Hull about when you wrote this.
"The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space"
I was not limiting my remarks overall to the Channel ports.
Evidently not but I'm not sure what purpose introducing random comments
serves.
Post by JNugent
I responded to a post about "all ports" (see my asterisked emphasis some
way above) and a specfic one about Dover (ditto). I had already asked
the PP how he knew (if he knew) that there were no facilities at "all
ports".
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will be
plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same with
the Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be after
Brexit.
Have you read the recent remarks of the boss of the Port of Calais?
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
That's almost 50 years ago. I presume you know cross Channel traffic has
increased massively since then.
Post by JNugent
And for ocean-going traffic, much of that is already
to and from locations which are not in the EU.
The number of our shipping destinations worldwide doesn't diminish the
enormous amount of trade we do across the Channel.
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for
space than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike
conditions.
JNugent
2019-08-13 09:35:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's
capacity to patrol fishing waters after a no-deal
Brexit, a memo from a government department mistakenly
emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a
space three times the size of the surface area of the
UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment, Food
and Rural Affairs was discussing media stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will be
enforced after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more
maritime patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs
facilities at ***all ports***.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at ***Dover*** even when we're in a
Customs union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks with
space and facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for days,
if necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain
passes and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to
maintain the required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time
required for border checks?
Nothing. Hull might have the same facilities for all that I know.
But I've never been there so can't say. The Seaforth Docks (north
end of Liverpool) is another port facility which I know has
plentiful waiting facilities.
What use are those docks for cross channel trade, which is what you
were talking about?
Dover is an almost-exclusively cross-Channel port. That is true. It
also happens to be the port with which I am (these days) most
familiar. But other ports exist, notably Liverpool (with which I am
still reasonably familiar). Not all of the UK's trade is conducted
directly across the English Channel. Some comes internationally and
even inter-continentally to Liverpool, Southampton and Hull. Maybe to
other mainland ports as well. But I can't answer as to the
availability of extensive queuing facilities in most of those because
I don't know them well enough.
The cross Channel trade is exclusvely cross Channel. Surely you
weren't talking about Liverpool or Hull about when you wrote this.
"The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space"
I was not limiting my remarks overall to the Channel ports.
Evidently not but I'm not sure what purpose introducing random comments
serves.
Don't make random comments, then.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
I responded to a post about "all ports" (see my asterisked emphasis some
way above) and a specfic one about Dover (ditto). I had already asked
the PP how he knew (if he knew) that there were no facilities at "all
ports".
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will be
plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same with
the Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be after
Brexit.
Have you read the recent remarks of the boss of the Port of Calais?
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
That's almost 50 years ago. I presume you know cross Channel traffic has
increased massively since then.
As have the size of the facilities at Dover and other English ferry
ports - to say nothing of those at Calais, Dunkirk and Ostend.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
And for ocean-going traffic, much of that is already
to and from locations which are not in the EU.
The number of our shipping destinations worldwide doesn't diminish the
enormous amount of trade we do across the Channel.
Nevertheless, the PP was discussing "all ports", not just the Channel ports.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for
space than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike
conditions.
Pamela
2019-08-13 13:28:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by JNugent
Post by g***@googlemail.com
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol
'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's
capacity to patrol fishing waters after a no-deal
Brexit, a memo from a government department
mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a
space three times the size of the surface area of
the UK".
The memo from the Department for the Environment,
Food and Rural Affairs was discussing media
stories.
But ministers said they are confident security will
be enforced after Brexit.
The day after the vote, I thought "we should build more
maritime patrol craft". We should have built huge Customs
facilities at ***all ports***.
What makes you say we haven't got them?
Witnessing the traffic queues at ***Dover*** even when we're in
a Customs union with the continent. I'm talking of lorry parks
with space and facilities to accommodate trucks and drivers for
days, if necessary.
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering
mountain passes and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order
to maintain the required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
What does the shortness of the crossing have to do with the time
required for border checks?
Nothing. Hull might have the same facilities for all that I know.
But I've never been there so can't say. The Seaforth Docks (north
end of Liverpool) is another port facility which I know has
plentiful waiting facilities.
What use are those docks for cross channel trade, which is what you
were talking about?
Dover is an almost-exclusively cross-Channel port. That is true. It
also happens to be the port with which I am (these days) most
familiar. But other ports exist, notably Liverpool (with which I am
still reasonably familiar). Not all of the UK's trade is conducted
directly across the English Channel. Some comes internationally and
even inter-continentally to Liverpool, Southampton and Hull. Maybe
to other mainland ports as well. But I can't answer as to the
availability of extensive queuing facilities in most of those
because I don't know them well enough.
The cross Channel trade is exclusvely cross Channel. Surely you
weren't talking about Liverpool or Hull about when you wrote this.
"The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space"
I was not limiting my remarks overall to the Channel ports.
Evidently not but I'm not sure what purpose introducing random comments
serves.
Don't make random comments, then.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
I responded to a post about "all ports" (see my asterisked emphasis
some way above) and a specfic one about Dover (ditto). I had already
asked the PP how he knew (if he knew) that there were no facilities at
"all ports".
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will
be plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same with
the Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be
after Brexit.
Have you read the recent remarks of the boss of the Port of Calais?
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
That's almost 50 years ago. I presume you know cross Channel traffic
has increased massively since then.
As have the size of the facilities at Dover and other English ferry
ports - to say nothing of those at Calais, Dunkirk and Ostend.
By that logic there would be few queues at San Ysidro but they are often
huge and the average wait there is 1 hour -- simply to continue on a road
journey without bottlenecks from ferry departures.
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
And for ocean-going traffic, much of that is already
to and from locations which are not in the EU.
The number of our shipping destinations worldwide doesn't diminish the
enormous amount of trade we do across the Channel.
Nevertheless, the PP was discussing "all ports", not just the Channel ports.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for
space than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with
strike conditions.
JNugent
2019-08-13 15:32:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[ ... ]
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
I responded to a post about "all ports" (see my asterisked emphasis
some way above) and a specfic one about Dover (ditto). I had already
asked the PP how he knew (if he knew) that there were no facilities at
"all ports".
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will
be plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same with
the Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be
after Brexit.
Have you read the recent remarks of the boss of the Port of Calais?
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
That's almost 50 years ago. I presume you know cross Channel traffic
has increased massively since then.
As have the size of the facilities at Dover and other English ferry
ports - to say nothing of those at Calais, Dunkirk and Ostend.
By that logic there would be few queues at San Ysidro but they are often
huge and the average wait there is 1 hour -- simply to continue on a road
journey without bottlenecks from ferry departures.
"Only an hour" through Dover or Calais would be good going even now.

I reckon on at least 90m from arrival at either port to the ship's
departure - and it's often/usually longer.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
And for ocean-going traffic, much of that is already
to and from locations which are not in the EU.
The number of our shipping destinations worldwide doesn't diminish the
enormous amount of trade we do across the Channel.
Nevertheless, the PP was discussing "all ports", not just the Channel ports.
Pamela
2019-08-13 20:10:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
[ ... ]
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
I responded to a post about "all ports" (see my asterisked emphasis
some way above) and a specfic one about Dover (ditto). I had already
asked the PP how he knew (if he knew) that there were no facilities
at "all ports".
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will
be plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same
with the Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be
after Brexit.
Have you read the recent remarks of the boss of the Port of Calais?
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
That's almost 50 years ago. I presume you know cross Channel traffic
has increased massively since then.
As have the size of the facilities at Dover and other English ferry
ports - to say nothing of those at Calais, Dunkirk and Ostend.
By that logic there would be few queues at San Ysidro but they are
often huge and the average wait there is 1 hour -- simply to continue
on a road journey without bottlenecks from ferry departures.
"Only an hour" through Dover or Calais would be good going even now.
I reckon on at least 90m from arrival at either port to the ship's
departure - and it's often/usually longer.
That's why I said the hour, sometimes 2, is for a "road journey without
bottlenecks from ferry departures".
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
And for ocean-going traffic, much of that is already to and from
locations which are not in the EU.
The number of our shipping destinations worldwide doesn't diminish
the enormous amount of trade we do across the Channel.
Nevertheless, the PP was discussing "all ports", not just the Channel ports.
JNugent
2019-08-14 16:47:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
[ ... ]
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
I responded to a post about "all ports" (see my asterisked emphasis
some way above) and a specfic one about Dover (ditto). I had already
asked the PP how he knew (if he knew) that there were no facilities
at "all ports".
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
It may not be as congested as Checkpoint Charlie but there will
be plenty of queuing all right.
Everybody has to queue for ships. It's part of the deal. Same
with the Shuttle trains.
The question is how much very longer the waiting times will be
after Brexit.
Have you read the recent remarks of the boss of the Port of Calais?
France is prepared for Brexit but are the corresponding UK ports?
He doesn't reckon there'll be any problems. We used to have
cross-Channel traffic (and lots of it) before we joined the Common
Market, you know.
That's almost 50 years ago. I presume you know cross Channel traffic
has increased massively since then.
As have the size of the facilities at Dover and other English ferry
ports - to say nothing of those at Calais, Dunkirk and Ostend.
By that logic there would be few queues at San Ysidro but they are
often huge and the average wait there is 1 hour -- simply to continue
on a road journey without bottlenecks from ferry departures.
"Only an hour" through Dover or Calais would be good going even now.
I reckon on at least 90m from arrival at either port to the ship's
departure - and it's often/usually longer.
That's why I said the hour, sometimes 2, is for a "road journey without
bottlenecks from ferry departures".
There will always be a time-consuming process at sea-ports (and come to
that, also at airports). Trying to model a journey without them is
pointless.
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
Post by Pamela
Post by JNugent
And for ocean-going traffic, much of that is already to and from
locations which are not in the EU.
The number of our shipping destinations worldwide doesn't diminish
the enormous amount of trade we do across the Channel.
Nevertheless, the PP was discussing "all ports", not just the Channel ports.
Roger
2019-08-14 17:21:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
This is rubbish. At the CH/EU border lorries have their paperwork done online by the shipping company before they arrive. They are mostly rubber stamped at the border (actually waived through because the rubber stamp is also virtual on the terminal).

Lorries do get stopped for spot checks to make sure that they are actually carrying what they claim. This happens at all borders including Schengen (for example you will see lorries being spot checked at Frejus and MonteBianco) and this is not so much for customs as for illegal contents such as drugs, immigrants etc.

This is why lorries are spot checked now at Calais/Dover, and why that will continue post Brexit. The extra paperwork (carnet) will not be done at the border.
JNugent
2019-08-14 18:49:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by JNugent
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
This is rubbish. At the CH/EU border lorries have their paperwork done online by the shipping company before they arrive. They are mostly rubber stamped at the border (actually waived through because the rubber stamp is also virtual on the terminal).
Lorries do get stopped for spot checks to make sure that they are actually carrying what they claim. This happens at all borders including Schengen (for example you will see lorries being spot checked at Frejus and MonteBianco) and this is not so much for customs as for illegal contents such as drugs, immigrants etc.
This is why lorries are spot checked now at Calais/Dover, and why that will continue post Brexit. The extra paperwork (carnet) will not be done at the border.
You have agreed with me that there are no unnecessary delays at border
crossings between Switzerland and EU-member neighbouring countries and
gone on to amplify the reasons for that, and you say that my statement
(with which you agreed) is rubbish?

Which bit of the thing you agreed with is "rubbish"?
Roger
2019-08-15 07:32:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Post by Roger
Post by JNugent
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
This is rubbish. At the CH/EU border lorries have their paperwork done online by the shipping company before they arrive. They are mostly rubber stamped at the border (actually waived through because the rubber stamp is also virtual on the terminal).
Lorries do get stopped for spot checks to make sure that they are actually carrying what they claim. This happens at all borders including Schengen (for example you will see lorries being spot checked at Frejus and MonteBianco) and this is not so much for customs as for illegal contents such as drugs, immigrants etc.
This is why lorries are spot checked now at Calais/Dover, and why that will continue post Brexit. The extra paperwork (carnet) will not be done at the border.
You have agreed with me that there are no unnecessary delays at border
crossings between Switzerland and EU-member neighbouring countries and
gone on to amplify the reasons for that, and you say that my statement
(with which you agreed) is rubbish?
Which bit of the thing you agreed with is "rubbish"?
Post by Roger
Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
Lorries do not queue 'elsewhere'. They do customs paperwork before departure and after arrival via the TIR system.

Checks around border areas, all border areas including e.g. Italy/France are all to do with checking what is in the lorries. It's not about paying duties.
JNugent
2019-08-15 10:20:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by JNugent
Post by Roger
Post by JNugent
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
This is rubbish. At the CH/EU border lorries have their paperwork done online by the shipping company before they arrive. They are mostly rubber stamped at the border (actually waived through because the rubber stamp is also virtual on the terminal).
Lorries do get stopped for spot checks to make sure that they are actually carrying what they claim. This happens at all borders including Schengen (for example you will see lorries being spot checked at Frejus and MonteBianco) and this is not so much for customs as for illegal contents such as drugs, immigrants etc.
This is why lorries are spot checked now at Calais/Dover, and why that will continue post Brexit. The extra paperwork (carnet) will not be done at the border.
You have agreed with me that there are no unnecessary delays at border
crossings between Switzerland and EU-member neighbouring countries and
gone on to amplify the reasons for that, and you say that my statement
(with which you agreed) is rubbish?
Which bit of the thing you agreed with is "rubbish"?
Post by Roger
Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
Lorries do not queue 'elsewhere'.
I didn't say they did (save for queuing to be allowed through the Alpine
pass tunnels at an orderly rate).
Post by Roger
They do customs paperwork before departure and after arrival via the TIR system.
Well aware of it.
Post by Roger
Checks around border areas, all border areas including e.g. Italy/France are all to do with checking what is in the lorries. It's not about paying duties.
Quite so. It's hard to see why you thought I was saying anything different.
Roger
2019-08-15 12:23:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by JNugent
Quite so. It's hard to see why you thought I was saying anything different
Because I'm not paying attention. sorry.
JNugent
2019-08-15 13:01:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by JNugent
Quite so. It's hard to see why you thought I was saying anything different
Because I'm not paying attention. sorry.
Fair enough.
Pamela
2019-08-15 13:07:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by JNugent
Quite so. It's hard to see why you thought I was saying anything different
Because I'm not paying attention. sorry.
Then why bother posting?
Pamela
2019-08-15 10:46:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
Post by JNugent
You don't even get that at the borders between EU countries and
Switzerland. Lorries are forced to queue before entering mountain passes
and tunnels at an orderly rate, though (in order to maintain the
required gaps between vehicles).
The short Channel crossing has plenty of security and queuing space
(especially at Dunkirk and Calais, which are less pressured for space
than Dover), though none of it is meant to cope with strike conditions.
This is rubbish. At the CH/EU border lorries have their paperwork done
online by the shipping company before they arrive. They are mostly
rubber stamped at the border (actually waived through because the rubber
stamp is also virtual on the terminal).
Lorries do get stopped for spot checks to make sure that they are
actually carrying what they claim. This happens at all borders including
Schengen (for example you will see lorries being spot checked at Frejus
and MonteBianco) and this is not so much for customs as for illegal
contents such as drugs, immigrants etc.
This is why lorries are spot checked now at Calais/Dover, and why that
will continue post Brexit. The extra paperwork (carnet) will not be done
at the border.
Those arrangements and others are seen as too generous by the EU and you
must know they are currently reviewing the situation which they see as
over-generous.

Historically, Switzerland is part of the single market which is not what
Brexit currently offers.

Furthermore, Switzerland is surrounded by the EU and the monitored passage
of goods through Switzerland is not the same thing as exporting or
importing outside the EU.

"According to information from the International Road Transport Union
(IRU), the average waiting time for lorries carrying goods ranges from
20 minutes to more than two hours if full inspections have to be
carried out."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594
tim...
2019-08-10 13:41:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to patrol
fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a government
department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three times
the size of the surface area of the UK".
Do people really think that isn't enough?

OK so that isn't going to give 100% coverage, but such enforcement doesn't
work that way

No-one expects there to be a traffic warden on every street corner so that
they can pounce on every errant parker and ticket them immediately

They expect the deterrent effect of "a traffic warden might come along in
the next 2 hours" to be sufficient.

And there's also the possibility of using remote enforcement by studying the
boat's AIS signals. Or do people think that the boats are going to turn
that off to evade detection but risk an even bigger penalty if they are
caught? (Quite apart from the increased risk to life, not necessarily
theirs, that will accrue from turning it off.)

And catching them doing this will be easy, a helicopter or remote drone
could do it over quite a wide area in a few hours.

HMG seem to need some specialist help here

My rates are quite reasonable :-)

tim
Pamela
2019-08-11 00:37:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by tim...
Post by Pamela
"Brexit: Email slip-up reveals no-deal fishing patrol 'uncertainty'"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49302778
There is "a lot of uncertainty" about the UK's capacity to patrol
fishing waters after a no-deal Brexit, a memo from a government
department mistakenly emailed to the BBC says.
The note says there are just 12 ships "to monitor a space three times
the size of the surface area of the UK".
Do people really think that isn't enough?
OK so that isn't going to give 100% coverage, but such enforcement
doesn't work that way
No-one expects there to be a traffic warden on every street corner so
that they can pounce on every errant parker and ticket them immediately
They expect the deterrent effect of "a traffic warden might come along
in the next 2 hours" to be sufficient.
And there's also the possibility of using remote enforcement by studying
the boat's AIS signals. Or do people think that the boats are going to
turn that off to evade detection but risk an even bigger penalty if they
are caught? (Quite apart from the increased risk to life, not
necessarily theirs, that will accrue from turning it off.)
And catching them doing this will be easy, a helicopter or remote drone
could do it over quite a wide area in a few hours.
HMG seem to need some specialist help here
My rates are quite reasonable :-)
tim
How fast do you think those 12 ships can move to undertake an
intervention? The area they have to cover is 3 times the size of the UK.
Roger
2019-08-14 17:15:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 1:37:12 AM UTC+1, Pamela wrote:> How fast do you think those 12 ships can move to undertake an
Post by Pamela
intervention? The area they have to cover is 3 times the size of the UK.
As ever we slide into ridiculous argument.

Firstly, European fishing boats have been fishing UK waters for the last 30 years. Is there any urgent need to ensure this stops immediately!

Secondly, If ships fish illegally those 3 patrol ships are entitled to impound ship and catch until a hefty fine is paid; if illegal fishing continues on a large scale then they could be impounding one ship a day.

How long do you think such a situation would continue. And if it did, I wouldn't put it past the tories to privatise the enforcement, allowing the private companies to pocket the fines from illegal boats they impound :D

Thirdly, observers note that the UK fishing fleet is a fraction of what it was and even if there was a no deal Brexit it would take many years to build itself up to it's former capacity; assuming the government wanted to this. While there is a good case for increased fishing rights that would allow traditional fishing villages to restore their economies, it is unlikely that restoring the onetime enormous commercial fleets of places like Hull is likely to be a priority, and they are more likely to include a lot of this capacity in the new deals that must be reached post Brexit.
Ian Jackson
2019-08-14 18:39:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 1:37:12 AM UTC+1, Pamela wrote:> How fast
do you think those 12 ships can move to undertake an
Post by Pamela
intervention? The area they have to cover is 3 times the size of the UK.
As ever we slide into ridiculous argument.
Firstly, European fishing boats have been fishing UK waters for the
last 30 years. Is there any urgent need to ensure this stops
immediately!
Secondly, If ships fish illegally those 3 patrol ships are entitled to
impound ship and catch until a hefty fine is paid; if illegal fishing
continues on a large scale then they could be impounding one ship a day.
How long do you think such a situation would continue. And if it did, I
wouldn't put it past the tories to privatise the enforcement, allowing
the private companies to pocket the fines from illegal boats they
impound :D
Thirdly, observers note that the UK fishing fleet is a fraction of what
it was and even if there was a no deal Brexit it would take many years
to build itself up to it's former capacity; assuming the government
wanted to this. While there is a good case for increased fishing rights
that would allow traditional fishing villages to restore their
economies, it is unlikely that restoring the onetime enormous
commercial fleets of places like Hull is likely to be a priority, and
they are more likely to include a lot of this capacity in the new deals
that must be reached post Brexit.
I might be wrong, but I believe that 80% of the fish landed in the UK
(both from UK and foreign boats) is processed and transported by road
and rail to the EU. In effect, the fish handling and processing industry
has replaced much of our actual fishing industry, and the effects of
Brexit could seriously disrupt it.
--
Ian
Roger
2019-08-15 07:34:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
I might be wrong,
Yes.
Ian Jackson
2019-08-15 07:38:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ian Jackson
I might be wrong,
Yes.
How observant of you!
--
Ian
Pamela
2019-08-15 13:06:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Roger
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 1:37:12 AM UTC+1, Pamela wrote:> How fast
do you think those 12 ships can move to undertake an
Post by Pamela
intervention? The area they have to cover is 3 times the size of the UK.
As ever we slide into ridiculous argument.
Firstly, European fishing boats have been fishing UK waters for the last
30 years. Is there any urgent need to ensure this stops immediately!
Secondly, If ships fish illegally those 3 patrol ships are entitled to
impound ship and catch until a hefty fine is paid; if illegal fishing
continues on a large scale then they could be impounding one ship a day.
How long do you think such a situation would continue. And if it did, I
wouldn't put it past the tories to privatise the enforcement, allowing
the private companies to pocket the fines from illegal boats they
impound :D
Thirdly, observers note that the UK fishing fleet is a fraction of what
it was and even if there was a no deal Brexit it would take many years
to build itself up to it's former capacity; assuming the government
wanted to this. While there is a good case for increased fishing rights
that would allow traditional fishing villages to restore their
economies, it is unlikely that restoring the onetime enormous commercial
fleets of places like Hull is likely to be a priority, and they are more
likely to include a lot of this capacity in the new deals that must be
reached post Brexit.
As usual, your deliberately muddled quotation coupled with a trademark
meandering reply obscures the fallacy in your argument.

I guess the gov't fisheries department doesn't understand the situation as
well as you. The internet is full of self-appointed bar room commentators
like you who believe they know the situation better than any expert.
Inevitably these are Brexiteers.
Loading...