Discussion:
Smart Motorways
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Omega
2019-10-04 09:56:05 UTC
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Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all. They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines. They may periodically
guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra lane. That will stir
the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour for the last
thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away from them!

I have real reservations on this notion.

Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and
we simply don't have them.

Perhaps just another cunning plan to fine us all for not obeying yet
another machine programmed by an idiot?

omega
tim...
2019-10-04 10:19:24 UTC
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Post by Omega
Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all. They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines.
Only if it necessary to travel at less than 70 - we have that now on
non-smart motorways
Post by Omega
They may periodically guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra
lane.
Um no, they don't do that at all

They now permanently use the space occupied as the hard shoulder as an extra
lane (I have actually travelled on a road where they configured it so that
the inside lane could be closed for use as a hard shoulder - it seemed to be
always designed as an extra lane, even at 2 am when there was no-one other
than me on the road)
Post by Omega
That will stir the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour
for the last thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away
from them!
That's just how it works

Travelled up the M1 at the weekend.

It is constantly (for no obvious reason) changing from congested three lanes
to freer flowing four lanes - not always because the 4 lane section was
smart.
Post by Omega
I have real reservations on this notion.
Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and we
simply don't have them.
In what sense do you mean that

you don't routinely see accidents when the road changes from 4 to 3 lanes
Keema's Nan
2019-10-04 10:27:31 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Omega
Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all. They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines.
Only if it necessary to travel at less than 70 - we have that now on
non-smart motorways
Post by Omega
They may periodically guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra
lane.
Um no, they don't do that at all
They now permanently use the space occupied as the hard shoulder as an extra
lane (I have actually travelled on a road where they configured it so that
the inside lane could be closed for use as a hard shoulder - it seemed to be
always designed as an extra lane, even at 2 am when there was no-one other
than me on the road)
Post by Omega
That will stir the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour
for the last thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away
from them!
That's just how it works
Travelled up the M1 at the weekend.
It is constantly (for no obvious reason) changing from congested three lanes
to freer flowing four lanes - not always because the 4 lane section was
smart.
Post by Omega
I have real reservations on this notion.
Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and we
simply don't have them.
In what sense do you mean that
you don't routinely see accidents when the road changes from 4 to 3 lanes
You regularly see serious congestion though - try the M5 southbound between
Gordano and Clevedon.
tim...
2019-10-04 10:56:57 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Post by tim...
Post by Omega
Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all. They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines.
Only if it necessary to travel at less than 70 - we have that now on
non-smart motorways
Post by Omega
They may periodically guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra
lane.
Um no, they don't do that at all
They now permanently use the space occupied as the hard shoulder as an extra
lane (I have actually travelled on a road where they configured it so that
the inside lane could be closed for use as a hard shoulder - it seemed to be
always designed as an extra lane, even at 2 am when there was no-one other
than me on the road)
Post by Omega
That will stir the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour
for the last thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away
from them!
That's just how it works
Travelled up the M1 at the weekend.
It is constantly (for no obvious reason) changing from congested three lanes
to freer flowing four lanes - not always because the 4 lane section was
smart.
Post by Omega
I have real reservations on this notion.
Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and we
simply don't have them.
In what sense do you mean that
you don't routinely see accidents when the road changes from 4 to 3 lanes
You regularly see serious congestion though - try the M5 southbound between
Gordano and Clevedon.
but the smart motorway isn't responsible for that

tim
Keema's Nan
2019-10-04 11:34:25 UTC
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Post by tim...
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by tim...
Post by Omega
Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all. They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines.
Only if it necessary to travel at less than 70 - we have that now on
non-smart motorways
Post by Omega
They may periodically guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra
lane.
Um no, they don't do that at all
They now permanently use the space occupied as the hard shoulder as an extra
lane (I have actually travelled on a road where they configured it so that
the inside lane could be closed for use as a hard shoulder - it seemed to be
always designed as an extra lane, even at 2 am when there was no-one other
than me on the road)
Post by Omega
That will stir the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour
for the last thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away
from them!
That's just how it works
Travelled up the M1 at the weekend.
It is constantly (for no obvious reason) changing from congested three lanes
to freer flowing four lanes - not always because the 4 lane section was
smart.
Post by Omega
I have real reservations on this notion.
Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and we
simply don't have them.
In what sense do you mean that
you don't routinely see accidents when the road changes from 4 to 3 lanes
You regularly see serious congestion though - try the M5 southbound between
Gordano and Clevedon.
but the smart motorway isn't responsible for that
tim
It is still 4 lanes to 3 lanes, and if there is sufficient traffic there will
be congestion.

If there isn’t sufficient traffic then there is hardly a need for a
’smart’ motorway at all.
Keema's Nan
2019-10-04 10:23:19 UTC
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Post by Omega
Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all. They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines. They may periodically
guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra lane. That will stir
the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour for the last
thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away from them!
I have real reservations on this notion.
Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and
we simply don't have them.
Perhaps just another cunning plan to fine us all for not obeying yet
another machine programmed by an idiot?
omega
The initial problem with them, is the vast amount of money spent and
travelling time wasted when they are installed - as can be witnessed on the
M4 between Maidenhead and Reading, and the M6 between Birmingham and
Coventry.
The Marquis Saint Evremonde
2019-10-04 16:49:08 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
The initial problem with them, is the vast amount of money spent and
travelling time wasted when they are installed - as can be witnessed on the
M4 between Maidenhead and Reading, and the M6 between Birmingham and
Coventry.
And the M3 between Sunbury and Hook. It's finished now, but it took
*years* with a 50mph speed limit.
--
Evremonde
Pancho
2019-10-04 17:23:51 UTC
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Post by Omega
Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all.  They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines.  They may periodically
guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra lane.  That will stir
the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour for the last
thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away from them!
I have real reservations on this notion.
Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and
we simply don't have them.
Perhaps just another cunning plan to fine us all for not obeying yet
another machine programmed by an idiot?
They have had them for a year or two on parts of the M25. It doesn't
seem to be much of a problem and it is supposed to increase average speed.
Keema's Nan
2019-10-04 18:39:15 UTC
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Post by Pancho
Post by Omega
Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all. They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines. They may periodically
guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra lane. That will stir
the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour for the last
thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away from them!
I have real reservations on this notion.
Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and
we simply don't have them.
Perhaps just another cunning plan to fine us all for not obeying yet
another machine programmed by an idiot?
They have had them for a year or two on parts of the M25. It doesn't
seem to be much of a problem and it is supposed to increase average speed.
It doesn’t work on most motorways, due to the large number of tailgating
drivers who try their utmost to leave as little space between them and the
car in front.

So, rather than pootling along at a steady speed, they accelerate as fast as
they can and then slam on the brakes.... And repeat about 100 times per mile
when in slow moving traffic. If faced with a pootling driver for more than a
minute they insist on forcing that person to realise what a shitbag he/she
is, by over/under taking the perceived miscreant and then swerving in front
of them just to ram home the idea that *no one in their right mind is going
to follow you at a constant speed while leaving 100 yards to the vehicle in
front*.
Pancho
2019-10-05 08:15:18 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pancho
Post by Omega
Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all. They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines. They may periodically
guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra lane. That will stir
the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour for the last
thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away from them!
I have real reservations on this notion.
Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and
we simply don't have them.
Perhaps just another cunning plan to fine us all for not obeying yet
another machine programmed by an idiot?
They have had them for a year or two on parts of the M25. It doesn't
seem to be much of a problem and it is supposed to increase average speed.
It doesn’t work on most motorways, due to the large number of tailgating
drivers who try their utmost to leave as little space between them and the
car in front.
So, rather than pootling along at a steady speed, they accelerate as fast as
they can and then slam on the brakes.... And repeat about 100 times per mile
when in slow moving traffic. If faced with a pootling driver for more than a
minute they insist on forcing that person to realise what a shitbag he/she
is, by over/under taking the perceived miscreant and then swerving in front
of them just to ram home the idea that *no one in their right mind is going
to follow you at a constant speed while leaving 100 yards to the vehicle in
front*.
Well you can say that but it is not what I have observed. In fact the
slower limit is designed to minimise sudden acceleration and
decelerations which chaotically cascade to form "sheer weight of"
traffic jams. This hypothesis is supported by trials.
Keema's Nan
2019-10-05 10:25:54 UTC
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Post by Pancho
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pancho
Post by Omega
Just been reading the blurb on Smart Motorways on an R.A.C. site telling
what these smart roadways will do for us all. They will constantly tell
what speed we need be or face colossal fines. They may periodically
guide us onto the hard shoulder to use as an extra lane. That will stir
the guys in the far lane having sped for 5 miles an hour for the last
thirty minutes to discover a lane opening three lanes away from them!
I have real reservations on this notion.
Smart Motorways are going to need a hell of a lot of smart drivers and
we simply don't have them.
Perhaps just another cunning plan to fine us all for not obeying yet
another machine programmed by an idiot?
They have had them for a year or two on parts of the M25. It doesn't
seem to be much of a problem and it is supposed to increase average speed.
It doesn’t work on most motorways, due to the large number of tailgating
drivers who try their utmost to leave as little space between them and the
car in front.
So, rather than pootling along at a steady speed, they accelerate as fast as
they can and then slam on the brakes.... And repeat about 100 times per mile
when in slow moving traffic. If faced with a pootling driver for more than a
minute they insist on forcing that person to realise what a shitbag he/she
is, by over/under taking the perceived miscreant and then swerving in front
of them just to ram home the idea that *no one in their right mind is going
to follow you at a constant speed while leaving 100 yards to the vehicle in
front*.
Well you can say that
Yes I can, because there is a whole region of science dedicated to traffic
flow on motorways, and you could read it to if you could manage a few minutes
of internet searching.
Post by Pancho
but it is not what I have observed.
Try driving with your eyes open.
Post by Pancho
In fact the
slower limit is designed to minimise sudden acceleration and
decelerations
So, you do agree that these occur - and practical steps have been taken to
minimise them?

I might as well rest my case.
Post by Pancho
which chaotically cascade to form "sheer weight of"
traffic jams. This hypothesis is supported by trials.
Mike Swift
2019-10-04 23:40:08 UTC
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Perhaps just another cunning plan to fine us all for not obeying yet another
machine programmed by an idiot?
I drive the M62 from Leeds to Huddersfield and vice versa, not every
day, but the only time I have not been stuck in slow moving traffic is
when the speed limits on the gantries have been turned off and traffic
is allowed to find its own speed.

The idiots at Highways England will show 60, then 50 and eventually 40
mph resulting in standing traffic, after the M606 Bradford turn off they
clear the signs and guess what, traffic moves freely and no bunching.

Smart motorways would be fine if smart people were employed to operate
them.

Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
Martin Brown
2019-10-06 15:49:32 UTC
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Post by Mike Swift
Perhaps just another cunning plan to fine us all for not obeying yet another
machine programmed by an idiot?
I drive the M62 from Leeds to Huddersfield and vice versa, not every
day, but the only time I have not been stuck in slow moving traffic is
when the speed limits on the gantries have been turned off and traffic
is allowed to find its own speed.
I don't think it is all that bad. It was absolutely horrible when they
were installing it (and very profitable for the scameramen). It seemed
that a lot of people didn't understand what average speed means.

I have known them set 40 and 60 on alternate M62 gantries once which
caused absolute chaos but in normal operation they generally drop the
speed limit if there is congestion or a dead car in a live lane (and
mark the no go lane(s) with a red "X"). I have never seen one go below
40 though even when traffic is stationary.

It annoys me when the gantries show "40" and the maximum possible speed
is under 5 mph.
Post by Mike Swift
The idiots at Highways England will show 60, then 50 and eventually 40
mph resulting in standing traffic, after the M606 Bradford turn off they
clear the signs and guess what, traffic moves freely and no bunching.
They do seem to be rather conservative about giving advanced warning but
they are in part doing that to avoid having people slam into the end of
a queue of stationary traffic. It is no fun being the tail end charlie
and watching some clueless muppet closing with you at speed whilst
facing and having an animated conversation with their passenger.

I have lost count of the number of imaginary animals loose on the M62.
Post by Mike Swift
Smart motorways would be fine if smart people were employed to operate
them.
I think smart motorways do mostly work although the loss of a true hard
shoulder can be problematic if there is a serious smash and the
emergency services - fire engines in particular need a way through.

It may seem like a paradox to those who drive with a lead boot on one of
either brake or accelerator alternately but a steady 50mph gets optimum
traffic flow and least pollution in heavy traffic.
--
Regards,
Martin Brown
Mike Swift
2019-10-06 23:56:39 UTC
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Post by Martin Brown
They do seem to be rather conservative about giving advanced warning but
they are in part doing that to avoid having people slam into the end of a
queue of stationary traffic. It is no fun being the tail end charlie and
watching some clueless muppet closing with you at speed whilst facing and
having an animated conversation with their passenger.
I was heading home to Huddersfield one afternoon after a blood donation
in Seacroft, I was in the outside lane with a descent distance behind
the car in front doing the regulation 70 mph, I saw white smoke about
five cars ahead and instinctively braked hard.

The cars in front weren't as observant and ended up all intimately
engaged, I stopped several yards from the carnage and looked in my rear
view mirror and prayed to Odin that the car behind had ABS, fortunately
it had.

Mike
--
Michael Swift We do not regard Englishmen as foreigners.
Kirkheaton We look on them only as rather mad Norwegians.
Yorkshire Halvard Lange
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