Discussion:
several of the weaker tory mps are trying to bypass democracy by calling for another referendum
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abelard
2018-12-01 13:18:53 UTC
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imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
--
www.abelard.org
Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
2018-12-01 14:46:24 UTC
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Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.

I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
abelard
2018-12-01 14:56:49 UTC
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On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out, and that we can then make our own laws
...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
to whatever degree parliament then decides...

talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
the people's vote

'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
--
www.abelard.org
Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
2018-12-01 15:38:06 UTC
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Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out, and that we can then make our own laws
...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
to whatever degree parliament then decides...
talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
the people's vote
'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
I’m sure you are right. In fact the EU would be stupid not to trade with us
if 2017 figures are anything to go by.

For that year we had a trading *deficit* on goods with the EU of £95
billion.

That was mitigated somewhat by a surplus of £28 billion in services, but
I’m sure that certain EU countries are eyeing up some of the
banking/insurance companies to relocate if sterling goes into free-fall come
the end of March, (or even in two weeks time if MPs throw out the May deal as
they are threatening to do).

If the Brits insist on eating asparagus, avocados and strawberries, etc. in
January; then our vast amounts of un-necessary imports will continue.
abelard
2018-12-01 15:47:26 UTC
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On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 15:38:06 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out, and that we can then make our own laws
...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
to whatever degree parliament then decides...
talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
the people's vote
'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
I’m sure you are right. In fact the EU would be stupid not to trade with us
if 2017 figures are anything to go by.
For that year we had a trading *deficit* on goods with the EU of £95
billion.
plus £10 billion+ in dole :-)
That was mitigated somewhat by a surplus of £28 billion in services, but
I’m sure that certain EU countries are eyeing up some of the
banking/insurance companies to relocate if sterling goes into free-fall come
the end of March, (or even in two weeks time if MPs throw out the May deal as
they are threatening to do).
If the Brits insist on eating asparagus, avocados and strawberries, etc. in
January; then our vast amounts of un-necessary imports will continue.
--
www.abelard.org
BurfordTJustice
2018-12-01 17:29:57 UTC
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Permalink
"abelard" <***@abelard.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 15:38:06 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
: <***@bungay.com> wrote:
:
: >On 1 Dec 2018, abelard wrote
: >(in article<***@4ax.com>):
: >
: >> On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
: >> <***@bungay.com> wrote:
: >>
: >> > On 1 Dec 2018, abelard wrote
: >> > (in article<***@4ax.com>):
: >> >
: >> > >
: >> > > imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
: >> >
: >> > I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
: >> >
: >> > I assumed he was a staunch 'no-deal'-er.
: >>
: >> i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
: >> essentially out, and that we can then make our own laws
: >> ...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
: >> to whatever degree parliament then decides...
: >>
: >> talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
: >> merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
: >> the people's vote
: >>
: >> 'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...i have no doubt
: >> we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
: >
: >I'm sure you are right. In fact the EU would be stupid not to trade with
us
: >if 2017 figures are anything to go by.
: >
: >For that year we had a trading *deficit* on goods with the EU of £95
: >billion.
:
: plus £10 billion+ in dole :-)
:
: >That was mitigated somewhat by a surplus of £28 billion in services, but
: >I'm sure that certain EU countries are eyeing up some of the
: >banking/insurance companies to relocate if sterling goes into free-fall
come
: >the end of March, (or even in two weeks time if MPs throw out the May
deal as
: >they are threatening to do).
: >
: >If the Brits insist on eating asparagus, avocados and strawberries, etc.
in
: >January; then our vast amounts of un-necessary imports will continue.
: >
:
: --
: www.abelard.org
BurfordTJustice
2018-12-01 17:29:41 UTC
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Permalink
"Fruitiest of Fruitcakes" <***@bungay.com> wrote in message news:***@news.giganews.com...
: On 1 Dec 2018, abelard wrote
: (in article<***@4ax.com>):
:
: > On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
: > <***@bungay.com> wrote:
: >
: > > On 1 Dec 2018, abelard wrote
: > > (in article<***@4ax.com>):
: > >
: > > >
: > > > imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
: > >
: > > I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
: > >
: > > I assumed he was a staunch 'no-deal'-er.
: >
: > i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
: > essentially out, and that we can then make our own laws
: > ...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
: > to whatever degree parliament then decides...
: >
: > talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
: > merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
: > the people's vote
: >
: > 'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...i have no doubt
: > we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
:
: I'm sure you are right. In fact the EU would be stupid not to trade with
us
: if 2017 figures are anything to go by.
:
: For that year we had a trading *deficit* on goods with the EU of £95
: billion.
:
: That was mitigated somewhat by a surplus of £28 billion in services, but
: I'm sure that certain EU countries are eyeing up some of the
: banking/insurance companies to relocate if sterling goes into free-fall
come
: the end of March, (or even in two weeks time if MPs throw out the May deal
as
: they are threatening to do).
:
: If the Brits insist on eating asparagus, avocados and strawberries, etc.
in
: January; then our vast amounts of un-necessary imports will continue.
:
:
BurfordTJustice
2018-12-01 17:29:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"abelard" <***@abelard.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
: <***@bungay.com> wrote:
:
: >On 1 Dec 2018, abelard wrote
: >(in article<***@4ax.com>):
: >
: >>
: >> imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
: >
: >I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
: >
: >I assumed he was a staunch 'no-deal'-er.
:
: i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
: essentially out, and that we can then make our own laws
: ...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
: to whatever degree parliament then decides...
:
: talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
: merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
: the people's vote
:
: 'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...i have no doubt
: we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
:
:
: --
: www.abelard.org
James Hammerton
2018-12-01 19:31:21 UTC
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Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.

For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.

We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...

, and that we can then make our own laws
Post by abelard
...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
to whatever degree parliament then decides...
Perhaps.
Post by abelard
talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
the people's vote
'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...
If so, does that not imply that 'leave the EU' wasn't honest semantics
when it in appeared in the following question: "Should the United
Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"?
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...

Regards,

James
--
James Hammerton
http://jhammerton.wordpress.com
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/
abelard
2018-12-01 19:55:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:31:21 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.
For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
Post by James Hammerton
, and that we can then make our own laws
Post by abelard
...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
to whatever degree parliament then decides...
Perhaps.
Post by abelard
talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
the people's vote
'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...
If so, does that not imply that 'leave the EU' wasn't honest semantics
when it in appeared in the following question: "Should the United
Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"?
imv it ws sufficiently honest
the wasn't would britain increase the width of the channel and
park nearer to iceland
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...
exactly

i hope i'm being clear...you will notice a degree of hardening
of my position over the past week since we last spoke
as a result of tasting the everlasting emotionalism in the air

i shall repeat another my sound bites...i trust the tory party
to negotiate an acceptable result

and also repeat, tick, tick, tick
--
www.abelard.org
James Hammerton
2018-12-01 20:30:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:31:21 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.
For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but has
no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.

For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign of
moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
, and that we can then make our own laws
Post by abelard
...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
to whatever degree parliament then decides...
Perhaps.
Post by abelard
talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
the people's vote
'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...
If so, does that not imply that 'leave the EU' wasn't honest semantics
when it in appeared in the following question: "Should the United
Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"?
imv it ws sufficiently honest
How do you square that with "'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics"?
Post by abelard
the wasn't would britain increase the width of the channel and
park nearer to iceland
No, it was about how Britain is governed and who governs her.
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...
exactly
i hope i'm being clear...you will notice a degree of hardening
of my position over the past week since we last spoke
I'm not entirely clear what your position is, you appear to be willing
to accept the deal as presented due to not regarding it as binding the
UK as much as many might suggest although you're also willing to accept
no deal. Is that right?
Post by abelard
as a result of tasting the everlasting emotionalism in the air
i shall repeat another my sound bites...i trust the tory party
to negotiate an acceptable result
What do you make of the current very open divisions within the party?
Post by abelard
and also repeat, tick, tick, tick
Well yes, but a sizeable constituency want to either extend the A50
deadline or revoke the A50 notification to pave way for a second
referendum (though some might do so to pave way for more time for a
renegotation).

Regards,

James
--
James Hammerton
http://jhammerton.wordpress.com
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/
abelard
2018-12-01 20:47:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:30:58 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:31:21 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.
For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but has
no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.
agreed but that depends entirely on the balls of the british
Post by James Hammerton
For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign of
moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
perhaps norwegians still have balls unlike swedes
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
no...nations with core keep working to struggle free...look
at poland and ireland as two ready examples
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
, and that we can then make our own laws
Post by abelard
...which over time can mean 'leaving the eussr' in steps
to whatever degree parliament then decides...
Perhaps.
Post by abelard
talk of a second referendum is deeply undemocratic and imv
merely and excuse to both block democracy and to reverse
the people's vote
'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics...
If so, does that not imply that 'leave the EU' wasn't honest semantics
when it in appeared in the following question: "Should the United
Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?"?
imv it ws sufficiently honest
How do you square that with "'leaving the eussr' is not honest semantics"?
because i see it as a process...

imv a major problem with the way so many people think is
they are not oriented to time but to binary 'logic'
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
the wasn't would britain increase the width of the channel and
park nearer to iceland
No, it was about how Britain is governed and who governs her.
a reasonable description in my book...meanwhile the world is
in constant change
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...
exactly
i hope i'm being clear...you will notice a degree of hardening
of my position over the past week since we last spoke
I'm not entirely clear what your position is, you appear to be willing
to accept the deal as presented due to not regarding it as binding the
UK as much as many might suggest although you're also willing to accept
no deal. Is that right?
yes
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
as a result of tasting the everlasting emotionalism in the air
i shall repeat another my sound bites...i trust the tory party
to negotiate an acceptable result
What do you make of the current very open divisions within the party?
ambition, trivia, posturing...some of them, foolishness

the party isn't showing signs of returning to the nonsense of
socialist johnny and the cambridge mafia...other than a few
like wolaston, greening and some other girl and now gymwotnot

socialism is the socialist poison...fortunately it seems to be losing
traction...even though slowly
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
and also repeat, tick, tick, tick
Well yes, but a sizeable constituency want to either extend the A50
deadline or revoke the A50 notification to pave way for a second
referendum (though some might do so to pave way for more time for a
renegotation).
i'm quite content to see many factions as long as the democratic will
isn't over-ridden

meanwhile i return to the effect of the web...

france is also showing a lack of willingness to sit down and obey
--
www.abelard.org
James Hammerton
2018-12-03 19:58:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:30:58 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:31:21 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.
For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but has
no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.
agreed but that depends entirely on the balls of the british
Post by James Hammerton
For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign of
moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
perhaps norwegians still have balls unlike swedes
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
no...nations with core keep working to struggle free...
I'm having trouble parsing that.
Post by abelard
look
at poland and ireland as two ready examples
What is Ireland doing to 'struggle free'?

I realise Poland is in conflict with the EU...

[snip]
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...
exactly
i hope i'm being clear...you will notice a degree of hardening
of my position over the past week since we last spoke
I'm not entirely clear what your position is, you appear to be willing
to accept the deal as presented due to not regarding it as binding the
UK as much as many might suggest although you're also willing to accept
no deal. Is that right?
yes
OK, what circs would persuade you the proposed agreement be rejected then?

Regards,

James
--
James Hammerton
http://jhammerton.wordpress.com
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/
abelard
2018-12-03 20:06:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 19:58:14 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:30:58 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:31:21 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.
For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but has
no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.
agreed but that depends entirely on the balls of the british
Post by James Hammerton
For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign of
moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
perhaps norwegians still have balls unlike swedes
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
no...nations with core keep working to struggle free...
I'm having trouble parsing that.
countries that have a culture
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
look
at poland and ireland as two ready examples
What is Ireland doing to 'struggle free'?
it's been at it, on and off for 800+ years
Post by James Hammerton
I realise Poland is in conflict with the EU...
i was thinking of their struggles against germany and russia
and back
Post by James Hammerton
[snip]
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...
exactly
i hope i'm being clear...you will notice a degree of hardening
of my position over the past week since we last spoke
I'm not entirely clear what your position is, you appear to be willing
to accept the deal as presented due to not regarding it as binding the
UK as much as many might suggest although you're also willing to accept
no deal. Is that right?
yes
OK, what circs would persuade you the proposed agreement be rejected then?
i don't mind if it accepted as is...
ps, i've watched about 3 hours of 'debate' in parliament on the
subject today...i was surprised how closely the att gen was to my
own interpretation :-)
--
www.abelard.org
James Hammerton
2018-12-05 18:01:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by abelard
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 19:58:14 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:30:58 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:31:21 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.
For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but has
no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.
agreed but that depends entirely on the balls of the british
Post by James Hammerton
For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign of
moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
perhaps norwegians still have balls unlike swedes
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
no...nations with core keep working to struggle free...
I'm having trouble parsing that.
countries that have a culture
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
look
at poland and ireland as two ready examples
What is Ireland doing to 'struggle free'?
it's been at it, on and off for 800+ years
That's a struggle to leave the UK (and more recently to get NI from the
UK), not the EU... they don't appear to wish to leave the EU.
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
I realise Poland is in conflict with the EU...
i was thinking of their struggles against germany and russia
and back
Well that's quite a switch of context from us discussing the efforts of
the UK government to leave the EU...
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
[snip]
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...
exactly
i hope i'm being clear...you will notice a degree of hardening
of my position over the past week since we last spoke
I'm not entirely clear what your position is, you appear to be willing
to accept the deal as presented due to not regarding it as binding the
UK as much as many might suggest although you're also willing to accept
no deal. Is that right?
yes
OK, what circs would persuade you the proposed agreement be rejected then?
i don't mind if it accepted as is...
ps, i've watched about 3 hours of 'debate' in parliament on the
subject today...i was surprised how closely the att gen was to my
own interpretation :-)
What do you make of the legal advice released today?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/761852/05_December-_EU_Exit_Attorney_General_s_legal_advice_to_Cabinet_on_the_Withdrawal_Agreement_and_the_Protocol_on_Ireland-Northern_Ireland.pdf

Regards,

James
--
James Hammerton
http://jhammerton.wordpress.com
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/
abelard
2018-12-05 18:41:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 18:01:27 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 19:58:14 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:30:58 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:31:21 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.
For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but has
no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.
agreed but that depends entirely on the balls of the british
Post by James Hammerton
For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign of
moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
perhaps norwegians still have balls unlike swedes
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
no...nations with core keep working to struggle free...
I'm having trouble parsing that.
countries that have a culture
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
look
at poland and ireland as two ready examples
What is Ireland doing to 'struggle free'?
it's been at it, on and off for 800+ years
That's a struggle to leave the UK (and more recently to get NI from the
UK), not the EU... they don't appear to wish to leave the EU.
how is that relevant...iir you asked about nations struggling
for independence
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
I realise Poland is in conflict with the EU...
i was thinking of their struggles against germany and russia
and back
Well that's quite a switch of context from us discussing the efforts of
the UK government to leave the EU...
i am baffled to know why!
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...
exactly
i hope i'm being clear...you will notice a degree of hardening
of my position over the past week since we last spoke
I'm not entirely clear what your position is, you appear to be willing
to accept the deal as presented due to not regarding it as binding the
UK as much as many might suggest although you're also willing to accept
no deal. Is that right?
yes
OK, what circs would persuade you the proposed agreement be rejected then?
i don't mind if it accepted as is...
ps, i've watched about 3 hours of 'debate' in parliament on the
subject today...i was surprised how closely the att gen was to my
own interpretation :-)
What do you make of the legal advice released today?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/761852/05_December-_EU_Exit_Attorney_General_s_legal_advice_to_Cabinet_on_the_Withdrawal_Agreement_and_the_Protocol_on_Ireland-Northern_Ireland.pdf
as a pragmatist i'm not sure why i should think anything of it

it is just an opinion...i can't see anything very useful in it

i can see no good reason for the politicians hysteria at
pretending to use it as a relevant issue

meanwhile
i strongly object to the removal of legal confidentiality...
i regard it as yet another attack on the rule of law
a thing i regard as far more important than the posturing
of mps...

this is a precedent from right at the top of the legal
structure...why should not any policeperson not
now demand previously confidential advice...
--
www.abelard.org
James Hammerton
2018-12-06 18:23:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by abelard
On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 18:01:27 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 19:58:14 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:30:58 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:31:21 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.
For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but has
no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.
agreed but that depends entirely on the balls of the british
Post by James Hammerton
For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign of
moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
perhaps norwegians still have balls unlike swedes
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
no...nations with core keep working to struggle free...
I'm having trouble parsing that.
countries that have a culture
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
look
at poland and ireland as two ready examples
What is Ireland doing to 'struggle free'?
it's been at it, on and off for 800+ years
That's a struggle to leave the UK (and more recently to get NI from the
UK), not the EU... they don't appear to wish to leave the EU.
how is that relevant...iir you asked about nations struggling
for independence
Huh? Your 'struggling free' comment (which I was querying) was in the
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
no...nations with core keep working to struggle free...
I realise Poland is in conflict with the EU...
i was thinking of their struggles against germany and russia
and back
Well that's quite a switch of context from us discussing the efforts of
the UK government to leave the EU...
i am baffled to know why!
The UK leaving the EU and how/whether that may happen is focus of the
whole damned thread!
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...
exactly
i hope i'm being clear...you will notice a degree of hardening
of my position over the past week since we last spoke
I'm not entirely clear what your position is, you appear to be willing
to accept the deal as presented due to not regarding it as binding the
UK as much as many might suggest although you're also willing to accept
no deal. Is that right?
yes
OK, what circs would persuade you the proposed agreement be rejected then?
i don't mind if it accepted as is...
ps, i've watched about 3 hours of 'debate' in parliament on the
subject today...i was surprised how closely the att gen was to my
own interpretation :-)
What do you make of the legal advice released today?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/761852/05_December-_EU_Exit_Attorney_General_s_legal_advice_to_Cabinet_on_the_Withdrawal_Agreement_and_the_Protocol_on_Ireland-Northern_Ireland.pdf
as a pragmatist i'm not sure why i should think anything of it
it is just an opinion...i can't see anything very useful in it
i can see no good reason for the politicians hysteria at
pretending to use it as a relevant issue
meanwhile
i strongly object to the removal of legal confidentiality...
i regard it as yet another attack on the rule of law
a thing i regard as far more important than the posturing
of mps...
this is a precedent from right at the top of the legal
structure...why should not any policeperson not
now demand previously confidential advice...
That is a good point!

(and is on top of various erosions of the confidentiality of legal
advice recent UK governments have enacted.

Regards,

James
--
James Hammerton
http://jhammerton.wordpress.com
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/
abelard
2018-12-06 23:27:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 18:23:46 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 18:01:27 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Mon, 3 Dec 2018 19:58:14 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:30:58 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 19:31:21 +0000, James Hammerton
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
On Sat, 01 Dec 2018 14:46:24 +0000, Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by Fruitiest of Fruitcakes
Post by abelard
imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
I assumed he was a staunch ’no-deal’-er.
i'm not a lawyer but my impression is may's deal is in fact
essentially out
For the period of the transition, it is out in name only aside from us
no longer having voting rights in the EU institutions.
For the backstop we do get more freedom, we will be more meaningfully
out but still subject to EU laws relating to the soem aspects of the
single market (even if at arms length), and the customs union, including
restrictions that will hamper our ability to have an independent trade
policy, restrictions that don't apply e.g. to the EEA countries.
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but has
no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.
agreed but that depends entirely on the balls of the british
Post by James Hammerton
For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign of
moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
perhaps norwegians still have balls unlike swedes
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
no...nations with core keep working to struggle free...
I'm having trouble parsing that.
countries that have a culture
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
look
at poland and ireland as two ready examples
What is Ireland doing to 'struggle free'?
it's been at it, on and off for 800+ years
That's a struggle to leave the UK (and more recently to get NI from the
UK), not the EU... they don't appear to wish to leave the EU.
how is that relevant...iir you asked about nations struggling
for independence
Huh? Your 'struggling free' comment (which I was querying) was in the
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
We don't know how much more freedom we'll get via the future
relationship and trade deal once/if they are concluded...
imv as much as we take
isn't that as much as the EU lets us take?
no...nations with core keep working to struggle free...
I realise Poland is in conflict with the EU...
i was thinking of their struggles against germany and russia
and back
Well that's quite a switch of context from us discussing the efforts of
the UK government to leave the EU...
i am baffled to know why!
The UK leaving the EU and how/whether that may happen is focus of the
whole damned thread!
i've lost a cog somewhere...struggling to get free of the eussr
empire...
is there a fog before my eyes :-)
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
i have no doubt
we will continue to trade with them and a great del more
Even a no deal scenario doesn't preclude that...
exactly
i hope i'm being clear...you will notice a degree of hardening
of my position over the past week since we last spoke
I'm not entirely clear what your position is, you appear to be willing
to accept the deal as presented due to not regarding it as binding the
UK as much as many might suggest although you're also willing to accept
no deal. Is that right?
yes
OK, what circs would persuade you the proposed agreement be rejected then?
i don't mind if it accepted as is...
ps, i've watched about 3 hours of 'debate' in parliament on the
subject today...i was surprised how closely the att gen was to my
own interpretation :-)
What do you make of the legal advice released today?
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/761852/05_December-_EU_Exit_Attorney_General_s_legal_advice_to_Cabinet_on_the_Withdrawal_Agreement_and_the_Protocol_on_Ireland-Northern_Ireland.pdf
as a pragmatist i'm not sure why i should think anything of it
it is just an opinion...i can't see anything very useful in it
i can see no good reason for the politicians hysteria at
pretending to use it as a relevant issue
meanwhile
i strongly object to the removal of legal confidentiality...
i regard it as yet another attack on the rule of law
a thing i regard as far more important than the posturing
of mps...
this is a precedent from right at the top of the legal
structure...why should not any policeperson not
now demand previously confidential advice...
That is a good point!
(and is on top of various erosions of the confidentiality of legal
advice recent UK governments have enacted.
--
www.abelard.org
Joe
2018-12-01 21:13:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:30:58 +0000
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but
has no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.
But no Parliament can bind its successors, and an unduly extended period
might be taken by a later Parliament as grounds for abandoning any deal
done now, particularly if a different party had a majority.
Post by James Hammerton
For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign
of moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
I believe that Sweden still uses the Krona, despite having joined the
EU after use of the Euro became mandatory for new members...
--
Joe
James Hammerton
2018-12-03 20:02:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by abelard
On Sat, 1 Dec 2018 20:30:58 +0000
Post by James Hammerton
Post by abelard
but only for a time...imv we can extend the elastic at will
An *unspecified* time - it's a claimed to be a temporary measure but
has no timescale attached to it. I'm always suspicious of ostensibly
temporary policies, they far too easily become long standing fixtures.
But no Parliament can bind its successors, and an unduly extended period
might be taken by a later Parliament as grounds for abandoning any deal
done now, particularly if a different party had a majority.
Good point.
Post by abelard
Post by James Hammerton
For example, the EEA was envisaged as a temporary staging area for
countries like Norway as they transitioned into EU membership. In
practice, Norway has been in the EEA since the 1990 and shows no sign
of moving towards full EU membership or back out of the EEA...
I believe that Sweden still uses the Krona, despite having joined the
EU after use of the Euro became mandatory for new members...
Wikipedia seems to agree with you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_krona

https://www.quora.com/Why-didnt-Sweden-join-the-eurozone also does.

Sweden appears to have found a loophole to enable them not to join...

Regards,

James
--
James Hammerton
http://jhammerton.wordpress.com
http://www.magnacartaplus.org/
BurfordTJustice
2018-12-01 17:28:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"Fruitiest of Fruitcakes" <***@bungay.com> wrote in message news:***@news.giganews.com...
: On 1 Dec 2018, abelard wrote
: (in article<***@4ax.com>):
:
: >
: > imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
:
: I was surprised when Liam Fox came out in support of Mother Theresa.
:
: I assumed he was a staunch 'no-deal'-er.
:
:
BurfordTJustice
2018-12-01 17:28:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
"abelard" <***@abelard.org> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
:
:
: imv such tory snowflakes should be deselected....
:
:
:
: --
: www.abelard.org
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