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Roger
2019-10-08 16:18:58 UTC
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So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.

It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal unless that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction, effectively making the EU a colony.

So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?

Get out, move on.
Roger
2019-10-08 16:19:52 UTC
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Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal unless that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction, effectively making the EU a colony.
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
And of course I meant making the UK a colony ;-)
Joe
2019-10-08 16:37:54 UTC
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On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal unless
that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction, effectively
making the UK a colony.
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
That's been the problem with the 'leaving negotiation' all along: the UK
aim has been to leave with a reasonable trade deal, the EU aim has been
to keep us in at all costs. They are mutually exclusive aims: there is
no conceivable compromise.
--
Joe
Ophelia
2019-10-08 19:56:30 UTC
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"Joe" wrote in message news:***@jresid.jretrading.com...

On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal unless
that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction, effectively
making the UK a colony.
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
That's been the problem with the 'leaving negotiation' all along: the UK
aim has been to leave with a reasonable trade deal, the EU aim has been
to keep us in at all costs. They are mutually exclusive aims: there is
no conceivable compromise.

Joe

===

Yes I agree! They daren't allow us to have a good deal in case other
countries decided they can leave too!
abelard
2019-10-08 20:33:20 UTC
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Post by Joe
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal unless
that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction, effectively
making the UK a colony.
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
That's been the problem with the 'leaving negotiation' all along: the UK
aim has been to leave with a reasonable trade deal, the EU aim has been
to keep us in at all costs. They are mutually exclusive aims: there is
no conceivable compromise.
how could a closed shop union be expected to welcome a free trader?
--
www.abelard.org
Pamela
2019-10-08 21:54:04 UTC
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Post by Joe
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal unless
that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction, effectively
making the UK a colony.
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
That's been the problem with the 'leaving negotiation' all along: the UK
aim has been to leave with a reasonable trade deal, the EU aim has been
to keep us in at all costs.
How has this alleged EU aim been manifest?
Post by Joe
They are mutually exclusive aims: there is
no conceivable compromise.
Joe
2019-10-09 08:32:09 UTC
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On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 22:54:04 +0100
Post by Pamela
Post by Joe
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal
unless that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction,
effectively making the UK a colony.
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
the UK aim has been to leave with a reasonable trade deal, the EU
aim has been to keep us in at all costs.
How has this alleged EU aim been manifest?
In the 'deal' which was offered to May, which was nothing of the kind
but simply an offer to stay in the EU indefinitely. You pretend that
the customs union has nothing to do with the EU, but it is the very
core of the EU and the means of imposing its laws on the member states
and keeping them subject to its courts and unable to deal directly
with other countries.

But you don't even need to see the evidence: no empire ever allows
secession willingly. Never has, never will. And the fuss on the
continent about the UK rebate, which was in its full form completely
justified, clearly shows that we're only in it for the money. *Our*
money, going to *them*.
--
Joe
Pamela
2019-10-09 10:36:56 UTC
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Post by Joe
On Tue, 08 Oct 2019 22:54:04 +0100
Post by Pamela
Post by Joe
On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:18:58 -0700 (PDT)
Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal
unless that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction,
effectively making the UK a colony.
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
the UK aim has been to leave with a reasonable trade deal, the EU
aim has been to keep us in at all costs.
How has this alleged EU aim been manifest?
In the 'deal' which was offered to May, which was nothing of the kind
but simply an offer to stay in the EU indefinitely.
I think it is mischaracterising a deal to leave the EU as a deal which
doesn't leave the EU, just because you don't like some of the terms.
Post by Joe
You pretend that
the customs union has nothing to do with the EU, but it is the very
core of the EU and the means of imposing its laws on the member states
and keeping them subject to its courts and unable to deal directly
with other countries.
The UK could, hypothetically, leave the EU as required by the referendum
but remain in the customs union.

There is a danger for Leavers to have their cake (Brexit) and eat it (all
the conditions they have on t heir wishlist but which weren't voted for).
Post by Joe
But you don't even need to see the evidence: no empire ever allows
secession willingly. Never has, never will. And the fuss on the
continent about the UK rebate, which was in its full form completely
justified, clearly shows that we're only in it for the money. *Our*
money, going to *them*.
So there's no synergy from being in a common market? It easily outweights
our financial payments.

Conversely, Brexit adds no value but instead it detracts from the value we
already have as a member.
Joe
2019-10-09 11:15:04 UTC
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On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 11:36:56 +0100
Post by Pamela
The UK could, hypothetically, leave the EU as required by the
referendum but remain in the customs union.
This is the assertion that I don't understand.

As a member of the EU customs union:

A) Is the UK Parliament required to implement any EU Directives?

B) Does the UK have to comply with any EU Regulations?

C) Is the UK restricted from making trade deals with non-EU countries?

D) Does *all* UK manufacturing and production, whether exported to EU
countries or not, need to comply with the appropriate CE standards?

E) Does the ECJ or other EU courts have any jurisdiction in the UK?

If your answer to any of these question is not a definite 'no', then we
have not left the EU. We are still subject to EU rule. As far as I can
see, membership of the EU customs union requires answering 'yes' to all
those questions.

Can you explain your assertion to the contrary?
--
Joe
Pamela
2019-10-09 12:40:18 UTC
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Post by Joe
On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 11:36:56 +0100
Post by Pamela
The UK could, hypothetically, leave the EU as required by the
referendum but remain in the customs union.
This is the assertion that I don't understand.
A) Is the UK Parliament required to implement any EU Directives?
B) Does the UK have to comply with any EU Regulations?
C) Is the UK restricted from making trade deals with non-EU countries?
D) Does *all* UK manufacturing and production, whether exported to EU
countries or not, need to comply with the appropriate CE standards?
E) Does the ECJ or other EU courts have any jurisdiction in the UK?
If your answer to any of these question is not a definite 'no', then we
have not left the EU. We are still subject to EU rule. As far as I can
see, membership of the EU customs union requires answering 'yes' to all
those questions.
Can you explain your assertion to the contrary?
How does any of that affect the fact we will would left the EU, as
requested in the referendum?

Those voting Brexit should have thought though any such complications and
been aware they may have been causing grater problems than existed
beforehand. Just as they should have thought through a solution for the
NI border but failed to do so.

The rest of the population can't save impulsive voters from their own
self-destructive stupidity but they can try to mitigate the effect of
other people's stupidity on themselves.

Nobody voted to leave the customs union because that wasn't a question on
the ballot.

p***@gmail.com
2019-10-08 17:36:14 UTC
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Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal unless that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction, effectively making the EU a colony.
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
Based on an unattributed no. 10 source, a characterisation and policy disputed by both Germany and the EU.

Undoubtedly the UK's latest proposals will not be acceptable to the EU, for many reasons. It's not however given that no agreement is possible, or that the UK should leave without one.

Patrick
Roger
2019-10-09 08:33:57 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
Undoubtedly the UK's latest proposals will not be acceptable to the EU, for many reasons. It's not however given that no agreement is possible, or that the UK should leave without one.
Patrick
Of a course a deal is possible. It's sufficient that the UK accepts to remain in a union with the EU, subject to it's jurisdiction, and unable to make any agreements with non EU countries. The EU would be more than happy to accept that.

But it wouldn't be Brexit, it would be colonization.
m***@btopenworld.com
2019-10-08 21:40:50 UTC
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Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal unless that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction, effectively making the EU a colony.
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
We were told again by the IFS (who were wrong last time) that leaving the EU without a deal would reduce our GDP by 4%.

As As things stand, we suffer a trade deficit with the EU of ~80bn. and don't forget, we pay for the privilege and that every £ spent in the EU is a £ less spent in the UK.

The conclusion is therefore that we should remain in the EU and allow that deficit to grow perhaps to say 100bn. Then we would reduce that deficit appropriately and our troubles would be over.

If you believe that you would fall for the 3 card trick! You have nothing to lose but your change.

The news from Germany is the best we have had for a long time.

The £39bn. "divorce settlement" will be saved. the government will receive tariff revenue from ~£80bn of imports. We shall be free to enter into trade agreements with whoever we like.

What is there to be afraid of? The EU has been an anchor against UK progress long enough. It now is beginning to look as though we are to be rid of it.

Based on the above
Pamela
2019-10-08 21:58:21 UTC
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Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Roger
So it seems that one of the real bosses (Merkel) has spoken.
It seems in effect that the EU will not make any leaving deal unless
that involves the UK remaining under EU jurisdiction, effectively
making the EU a colony.
How would an EU court ruling only on EU law make the UK a colony of
theirs?
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
Post by Roger
So if no deal is possible what's the point of waiting?
Get out, move on.
We were told again by the IFS (who were wrong last time) that leaving
the EU without a deal would reduce our GDP by 4%.
Perhaps their error, if it exists, is that our GDP will fall be 14% not
4%. How do you know?
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
As As things stand, we suffer a trade deficit with the EU of ~80bn. and
don't forget, we pay for the privilege and that every £ spent in the EU
is a £ less spent in the UK.
Simplistic zero sum calculations don't apply in a complex synergistic
system such as the EU. The EU is desigend to be win-win.
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
The conclusion is therefore that we should remain in the EU and allow
that deficit to grow perhaps to say 100bn. Then we would reduce that
deficit appropriately and our troubles would be over.
If you believe that you would fall for the 3 card trick! You have
nothing to lose but your change.
The news from Germany is the best we have had for a long time.
Presumably that's zero sum schadenfreude but how doe sit improve our lot?
Post by m***@btopenworld.com
The 39bn. "divorce settlement" will be saved. the government will
receive tariff revenue from ~£80bn of imports. We shall be free to enter
into trade agreements with whoever we like.
What is there to be afraid of? The EU has been an anchor against UK
progress long enough. It now is beginning to look as though we are to be
rid of it.
Based on the above
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