Discussion:
antisemitism
(too old to reply)
saracene
2018-04-08 16:56:54 UTC
Permalink
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition. So here is a not unreasonable article from a few years ago by the chief rabbi of the time:-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/feb/28/comment

I never thought I would have to write about anti-semitism. Until recently I hadn't experienced it. I might have done. I went to Christian schools, St Mary's Primary, then Christ's College Finchley. We Jews were different and a minority. Yet not once was I insulted for my faith.
Like many others born after the Holocaust, anti-semitism was something I associated with the past. My late father spoke about it. He had come to Britain as a child fleeing persecution, and he always argued that Polish anti-semitism went deeper than that of the Germans. It was not until after he died that I discovered that in Kielce, his home town, a pogrom had taken place as late as July 1946. Local Poles shot, stoned, butchered or otherwise murdered 42 Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. Yet despite all he knew, my father never warned me to expect prejudice. If anything, he made a joke of it. "Anti-semitic traffic lights", he would say whenever they turned red at our approach.

Until now, I have been reticent about talking about anti-semitism. There is all the difference in the world between the virulent anti-Jewishness that dominated western Europe during the 19th century and its genteel English equivalent (perfectly captured in Isabel Colegate's novel, The Shooting Party, when the host remarks, after the Jewish guest has arrived: "The semite is among us"). Indiscreet remarks by ambassadors at dinner parties do not constitute a new Dreyfus case. Over-reaction is as foolish as under-reaction. Anti-semitism is dangerous only when it enters the mainstream of political discourse, something that has not yet happened in Britain.

Then again, some Jews see antisemitism as part of Jewish identity. So did Jean-Paul Sartre, who claimed in his Sur le Question Juif that the only thing Jews had in common was that they were the victims of hate. It is not Jews who create anti-semitism, he said, but anti-semitism that creates Jews. I have fought that view all my adult life. It leads to the tortured psychology of an Arthur Koestler, who wrote: "Self-hatred is the Jews patriotism", or Franz Kafka, who said: "What do I have in common with the Jews? I don't even have anything in common with myself." To me, Jewishness is about moral responsibility, not victimhood; about trust, not fear. Anti-semitism is something that happens to Jews; it does not define who we are.


Equally we can too easily dismiss all criticism of the state or government of Israel as anti-semitism. It is not. No democratic state is entitled to consider itself beyond reproach, and Israel is a democratic state. Indeed it was ancient Israel who, in the biblical prophets, invented the art of self-criticism. Zionism is categorically not, as it is sometimes claimed to be, "My people right or wrong". Yet some recent assaults on Israel have gone beyond mere criticism. They have entered darker territory. The question is, where do we draw the line?

Anti-semitism is so emotive a topic that it helps to perform a thought experiment. Suppose someone were to claim that there is a form of prejudice called anti-kiwism, an irrational hatred of New Zealanders. What might convince us he was right? Criticism of the New Zealand government? No. A denial of New Zealand's right to exist? Maybe. Seven thousand terrorist attacks on New Zealand citizens in the past year? Possibly. A series of claims at the UN Conference against Racism in Durban that New Zealand, because of its treatment of the Maori, is uniquely guilty of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, accompanied by grotesque Nazi-style posters? Perhaps.

A call to murder all those with New Zealand loyalties even though they were born and live elsewhere? A suggestion that New Zealanders control the world's economy? That they are responsible for Aids and poisoning water supplies? That they arranged the September 11 attack on the World Trade Centre? That they are a satanic force of evil against whom a holy war must be fought? By now we have moved from criticism to hatred to evil fantasy. But delete "New Zealand" and insert "Israel" and "Jews", and all these things have happened in the past year. What more has to happen before an impartial observer concludes that anti-semitism is alive and well and dangerous?

A week ago a cleric in east London was charged with "soliciting to murder" after allegedly distributing videos calling on his followers to attack Jews ("How do you fight the Jews? You kill the Jews.") Within days another video appeared, showing the gruesome murder in Pakistan of American journalist Daniel Pearl. He is shown being forced to kneel and confess that he and his parents are Jewish. His throat is then cut. Over his writhing body, a voice warns: "Other Americans and Jews should be ready to face a fate like Daniel Pearl." These are only the most newsworthy of a wave of anti-Jewish incidents that have gone round the world in recent months, affecting even student life in Britain. This is not polite and genteel. This is the real, ultimately murderous thing.


Anti-semitism is undeniably the most successful ideology of modern times. Fascism came and went. Soviet communism came and went. Anti-semitism came and stayed. Its success is due to the fact that, like a virus, it mutates. At times it has been directed against Jews as individuals. Today it is directed against Jews as a sovereign people. The common factor is that Jews, uniquely, are denied the right to exist in whatever form their collective existence currently takes. There is a direct line from "You have no right to live among us as Jews" to "You have no right to live".

What disturbs me is that, were this cumulative hate to be directed against anyone else, the left would be the first to protest. Have we learned nothing from history? An assault on Jews is an assault on difference, and a world that has no room for difference has no room for humanity itself.
abelard
2018-04-08 18:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it

one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't


rest binned...
--
www.abelard.org
Tim
2018-04-08 19:21:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it
one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't
rest binned...
I also posted a link to a definition which he chose to ignore.
--
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abelard
2018-04-08 19:24:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it
one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't
rest binned...
I also posted a link to a definition which he chose to ignore.
could i have a look please...
--
www.abelard.org
Tim
2018-04-08 19:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by abelard
Post by Tim
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it
one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't
rest binned...
I also posted a link to a definition which he chose to ignore.
could i have a look please...
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf

I leave it up to you , and others , to decide whether that is a
reasonable definition.
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A. Filip
2018-04-08 20:26:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by abelard
Post by Tim
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it
one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't
rest binned...
I also posted a link to a definition which he chose to ignore.
could i have a look please...
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf
I leave it up to you , and others , to decide whether that is a
reasonable definition.
Yet another definition available "in the wild":
Antisemite -somebody disliked by Jews
--
A. Filip
| "Been through Hell? Whaddya bring back for me?" (A. Brilliant)
saracene
2018-04-08 21:08:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by abelard
Post by Tim
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it
one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't
rest binned...
I also posted a link to a definition which he chose to ignore.
could i have a look please...
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf
I leave it up to you , and others , to decide whether that is a
reasonable definition.
The definition is absurdly vague, many of the illustrations are ridiculous.
abelard
2018-04-08 21:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by abelard
Post by Tim
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it
one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't
rest binned...
I also posted a link to a definition which he chose to ignore.
could i have a look please...
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf
I leave it up to you , and others , to decide whether that is a
reasonable definition.
on a crude level i see no problems

though most humans have irrational hatreds...
or negativism

look at all the socialist who hate 'the rich' or 'bankers'
--
www.abelard.org
saracene
2018-04-08 21:05:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it
one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't
rest binned...
I also posted a link to a definition which he chose to ignore.
--
Did you? Sorry I must have missed it.
saracene
2018-04-09 08:21:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
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I'm all for supporting research into mental illness. Do you have a special interest?
Tim
2018-04-09 08:42:55 UTC
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Post by saracene
Post by Tim
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I'm all for supporting research into mental illness. Do you have a special interest?
As I have been diagnosed at points of time with
schizophrenia,schizoaffective and personality disorder(controversial? as
whether a mental illness) then those. Psychosis as I am reckoned to have
experienced psychosis. Autism with psychosis as I have autistic traits.
--
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saracene
2018-04-09 08:53:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim
Post by saracene
Post by Tim
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I'm all for supporting research into mental illness. Do you have a special interest?
As I have been diagnosed at points of time with
schizophrenia,schizoaffective and personality disorder(controversial? as
whether a mental illness) then those. Psychosis as I am reckoned to have
experienced psychosis. Autism with psychosis as I have autistic traits.
--
Please support mental health research and world community grid
http://www.mentalhealthresearchuk.org.uk/
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https://www.mqmentalhealth.org/
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My sympathies (sincere). I have much experience, not in myself, but of those close to me as well as several friends.

I note we hear the the terms "autistic" and "on the spectrum" a lot these days, and "schizoid" far less than we used to.
abelard
2018-04-09 09:06:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
Post by Tim
Post by saracene
Post by Tim
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I'm all for supporting research into mental illness. Do you have a special interest?
As I have been diagnosed at points of time with
schizophrenia,schizoaffective and personality disorder(controversial? as
whether a mental illness) then those. Psychosis as I am reckoned to have
experienced psychosis. Autism with psychosis as I have autistic traits.
--
Please support mental health research and world community grid
http://www.mentalhealthresearchuk.org.uk/
http://mcpin.org/
https://www.mqmentalhealth.org/
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My sympathies (sincere). I have much experience, not in myself, but of those close to me as well as several friends.
I note we hear the the terms "autistic" and "on the spectrum" a lot these days, and "schizoid" far less than we used to.
we now also have 'new' labour(another mental disease)

there are new 'services' to sell every day

definition of a psychiatrist....'a paid friend'...
other services are 'lawyer', whore and plumber
--
www.abelard.org
saracene
2018-04-09 12:10:45 UTC
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Post by abelard
Post by saracene
Post by Tim
Post by saracene
Post by Tim
--
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I'm all for supporting research into mental illness. Do you have a special interest?
As I have been diagnosed at points of time with
schizophrenia,schizoaffective and personality disorder(controversial? as
whether a mental illness) then those. Psychosis as I am reckoned to have
experienced psychosis. Autism with psychosis as I have autistic traits.
--
Please support mental health research and world community grid
http://www.mentalhealthresearchuk.org.uk/
http://mcpin.org/
https://www.mqmentalhealth.org/
https://join.worldcommunitygrid.org?recruiterId=123388
My sympathies (sincere). I have much experience, not in myself, but of those close to me as well as several friends.
I note we hear the the terms "autistic" and "on the spectrum" a lot these days, and "schizoid" far less than we used to.
we now also have 'new' labour(another mental disease)
there are new 'services' to sell every day
definition of a psychiatrist....'a paid friend'...
One of the people I most hated in my life was a South African female communist psychiatrist who "happened" as they say to be Jewish. She once appeared on my doorsteop in her fur coat and dark curly wig chewing gum, looking for all the world like a mafia moll delivering a threat.
saracene
2018-04-09 12:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
Post by Tim
Post by saracene
Post by Tim
--
Please support mental health research and world community grid
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https://www.mqmentalhealth.org/
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I'm all for supporting research into mental illness. Do you have a special interest?
As I have been diagnosed at points of time with
schizophrenia,schizoaffective and personality disorder(controversial? as
whether a mental illness) then those. Psychosis as I am reckoned to have
experienced psychosis. Autism with psychosis as I have autistic traits.
--
Please support mental health research and world community grid
http://www.mentalhealthresearchuk.org.uk/
http://mcpin.org/
https://www.mqmentalhealth.org/
https://join.worldcommunitygrid.org?recruiterId=123388
My sympathies (sincere). I have much experience, not in myself, but of those close to me as well as several friends.
I note we hear the the terms "autistic" and "on the spectrum" a lot these days, and "schizoid" far less than we used to.
we now also have 'new' labour(another mental disease)
there are new 'services' to sell every day
definition of a psychiatrist....'a paid friend'...
One of the people I most hated in my life was a South African female communist psychiatrist who "happened" as they say to be Jewish. She once appeared on my doorsteop in her fur coat and dark curly wig chewing gum, looking for all the world like a mafia moll delivering a threat.
Maybe you know her.

saracene
2018-04-08 21:03:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it
one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't
rest binned...
--
You are pathetic.
abelard
2018-04-08 21:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
Post by abelard
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition.
i gave you a definition....you have even taken to quoting it
one day you'll learn the difference between a universal and an
individual...and maybe you won't
rest binned...
You are pathetic.
your incompetence is not my problem
--
www.abelard.org
Farmer Giles
2018-04-08 18:49:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
No one here is able or willing to offer a definition. So here is a not unreasonable article from a few years ago by the chief rabbi of the time:-
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/feb/28/comment
I never thought I would have to write about anti-semitism. Until recently I hadn't experienced it. I might have done. I went to Christian schools, St Mary's Primary, then Christ's College Finchley. We Jews were different and a minority. Yet not once was I insulted for my faith.
Like many others born after the Holocaust, anti-semitism was something I associated with the past. My late father spoke about it. He had come to Britain as a child fleeing persecution, and he always argued that Polish anti-semitism went deeper than that of the Germans. It was not until after he died that I discovered that in Kielce, his home town, a pogrom had taken place as late as July 1946. Local Poles shot, stoned, butchered or otherwise murdered 42 Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. Yet despite all he knew, my father never warned me to expect prejudice. If anything, he made a joke of it. "Anti-semitic traffic lights", he would say whenever they turned red at our approach.
Until now, I have been reticent about talking about anti-semitism. There is all the difference in the world between the virulent anti-Jewishness that dominated western Europe during the 19th century and its genteel English equivalent (perfectly captured in Isabel Colegate's novel, The Shooting Party, when the host remarks, after the Jewish guest has arrived: "The semite is among us"). Indiscreet remarks by ambassadors at dinner parties do not constitute a new Dreyfus case. Over-reaction is as foolish as under-reaction. Anti-semitism is dangerous only when it enters the mainstream of political discourse, something that has not yet happened in Britain.
Then again, some Jews see antisemitism as part of Jewish identity. So did Jean-Paul Sartre, who claimed in his Sur le Question Juif that the only thing Jews had in common was that they were the victims of hate. It is not Jews who create anti-semitism, he said, but anti-semitism that creates Jews. I have fought that view all my adult life. It leads to the tortured psychology of an Arthur Koestler, who wrote: "Self-hatred is the Jews patriotism", or Franz Kafka, who said: "What do I have in common with the Jews? I don't even have anything in common with myself." To me, Jewishness is about moral responsibility, not victimhood; about trust, not fear. Anti-semitism is something that happens to Jews; it does not define who we are.
Equally we can too easily dismiss all criticism of the state or government of Israel as anti-semitism. It is not. No democratic state is entitled to consider itself beyond reproach, and Israel is a democratic state. Indeed it was ancient Israel who, in the biblical prophets, invented the art of self-criticism. Zionism is categorically not, as it is sometimes claimed to be, "My people right or wrong". Yet some recent assaults on Israel have gone beyond mere criticism. They have entered darker territory. The question is, where do we draw the line?
Anti-semitism is so emotive a topic that it helps to perform a thought experiment. Suppose someone were to claim that there is a form of prejudice called anti-kiwism, an irrational hatred of New Zealanders. What might convince us he was right? Criticism of the New Zealand government? No. A denial of New Zealand's right to exist? Maybe. Seven thousand terrorist attacks on New Zealand citizens in the past year? Possibly. A series of claims at the UN Conference against Racism in Durban that New Zealand, because of its treatment of the Maori, is uniquely guilty of apartheid, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, accompanied by grotesque Nazi-style posters? Perhaps.
A call to murder all those with New Zealand loyalties even though they were born and live elsewhere? A suggestion that New Zealanders control the world's economy? That they are responsible for Aids and poisoning water supplies? That they arranged the September 11 attack on the World Trade Centre? That they are a satanic force of evil against whom a holy war must be fought? By now we have moved from criticism to hatred to evil fantasy. But delete "New Zealand" and insert "Israel" and "Jews", and all these things have happened in the past year. What more has to happen before an impartial observer concludes that anti-semitism is alive and well and dangerous?
A week ago a cleric in east London was charged with "soliciting to murder" after allegedly distributing videos calling on his followers to attack Jews ("How do you fight the Jews? You kill the Jews.") Within days another video appeared, showing the gruesome murder in Pakistan of American journalist Daniel Pearl. He is shown being forced to kneel and confess that he and his parents are Jewish. His throat is then cut. Over his writhing body, a voice warns: "Other Americans and Jews should be ready to face a fate like Daniel Pearl." These are only the most newsworthy of a wave of anti-Jewish incidents that have gone round the world in recent months, affecting even student life in Britain. This is not polite and genteel. This is the real, ultimately murderous thing.
Anti-semitism is undeniably the most successful ideology of modern times. Fascism came and went. Soviet communism came and went. Anti-semitism came and stayed. Its success is due to the fact that, like a virus, it mutates. At times it has been directed against Jews as individuals. Today it is directed against Jews as a sovereign people. The common factor is that Jews, uniquely, are denied the right to exist in whatever form their collective existence currently takes. There is a direct line from "You have no right to live among us as Jews" to "You have no right to live".
What disturbs me is that, were this cumulative hate to be directed against anyone else, the left would be the first to protest. Have we learned nothing from history? An assault on Jews is an assault on difference, and a world that has no room for difference has no room for humanity itself.
Self-serving tripe.

I'll give you a couple of definitions of an antisemite:

(1) Someone the Jews don't like.

or

(2) Someone who dislikes Jews more than is absolutely necessary.' - H L
Mencken

Instead of bleating about why they have been disliked for thousands of
years perhaps they should perhaps ask themselves why.

'Any people that has been persecuted for two thousand years must be
doing something wrong' - Henry Kissinger
saracene
2018-04-08 21:27:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Self-serving tripe.
I'm trying to be conciliatory. I don't mind Sacks. He is pretty anglicised and has a right to his religion. He says "There is all the difference in the world between the virulent anti-Jewishness that dominated western Europe during the 19th century and its genteel English equivalent". Mine is genteel and Englsih and he shouldn't mind that. I might apologise for the holocaust but I'm not particulalry bothered to deny it. You don't want to kill the Jews either do you?
Post by Farmer Giles
(1) Someone the Jews don't like.
Yes but if we are to have a discussion with Jews and their apologists we need a better one than that.
Post by Farmer Giles
or
(2) Someone who dislikes Jews more than is absolutely necessary.' - H L
Mencken
Then neither you or I qualify.
Post by Farmer Giles
Instead of bleating about why they have been disliked for thousands of
years perhaps they should perhaps ask themselves why.
They won't though, or not enough of them will.
Post by Farmer Giles
'Any people that has been persecuted for two thousand years must be
doing something wrong' - Henry Kissinger
Of course, but how can we change that?

I was looking for a simple working definition that could be used as a basis for an argument. Then someone can try to explain what is so wrong with it, if anything.

Look at this nonsense offered by Tim. What use could be made of it? Product of some addled Swedish mind?

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

A "certain percpetion"? What perception? "My be expressed"? Or may not? As a definiton it's utter garbage.
A. Filip
2018-04-08 21:42:46 UTC
Permalink
saracene <***@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
Post by saracene
“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed
as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of
antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals
and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and
religious facilities.”
A "certain percpetion"? What perception? "My be expressed"? Or may
not? As a definiton it's utter garbage.
Your expectations about _politically useful tools_ are unreasonable :-)
--
A. Filip
| Digital circuits are made from analog parts. (Don Vonada)
Tim
2018-04-09 00:25:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
Post by Farmer Giles
Self-serving tripe.
I'm trying to be conciliatory. I don't mind Sacks. He is pretty anglicised and has a right to his religion. He says "There is all the difference in the world between the virulent anti-Jewishness that dominated western Europe during the 19th century and its genteel English equivalent". Mine is genteel and Englsih and he shouldn't mind that. I might apologise for the holocaust but I'm not particulalry bothered to deny it. You don't want to kill the Jews either do you?
Post by Farmer Giles
(1) Someone the Jews don't like.
Yes but if we are to have a discussion with Jews and their apologists we need a better one than that.
Post by Farmer Giles
or
(2) Someone who dislikes Jews more than is absolutely necessary.' - H L
Mencken
Then neither you or I qualify.
Post by Farmer Giles
Instead of bleating about why they have been disliked for thousands of
years perhaps they should perhaps ask themselves why.
They won't though, or not enough of them will.
Post by Farmer Giles
'Any people that has been persecuted for two thousand years must be
doing something wrong' - Henry Kissinger
Of course, but how can we change that?
I was looking for a simple working definition that could be used as a basis for an argument. Then someone can try to explain what is so wrong with it, if anything.
Loo
k at this nonsense offered by Tim. What use could be made of it? Product
of some addled Swedish mind?
You only think it's nonsense because you're not very intelligent. In
fact you're quite stupid.
Post by saracene
“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”
A "certain percpetion"? What perception? "My be expressed"? Or may not? As a definiton it's utter garbage.
--
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saracene
2018-04-09 06:43:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
Post by saracene
Loo
k at this nonsense offered by Tim. What use could be made of it? Product
of some addled Swedish mind?
You only think it's nonsense because you're not very intelligent. In
fact you're quite stupid.
Precisely my thoughts on you. If you think that's a definition (which is what is claimed) then you are a moron. I was thinking you must be.
Post by saracene
Post by saracene
“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”
A "certain perception"? What perception? "My be expressed"? Or may not? As a definiton it's utter garbage.
Tim
2018-04-09 08:46:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
Post by saracene
Post by saracene
Loo
k at this nonsense offered by Tim. What use could be made of it? Product
of some addled Swedish mind?
You only think it's nonsense because you're not very intelligent. In
fact you're quite stupid.
Precisely my thoughts on you. If you think that's a definition (which is what is claimed) then you are a moron. I was thinking you must be.
Ah but I'm intelligent enough to know I'm not that intelligent whereas
you think you're clever ;)
Post by saracene
Post by saracene
Post by saracene
“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”
A "certain perception"? What perception? "My be expressed"? Or may not? As a definiton it's utter garbage.
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abelard
2018-04-09 09:08:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
Post by saracene
Post by Farmer Giles
Self-serving tripe.
I'm trying to be conciliatory. I don't mind Sacks. He is pretty anglicised and has a right to his religion. He says "There is all the difference in the world between the virulent anti-Jewishness that dominated western Europe during the 19th century and its genteel English equivalent". Mine is genteel and Englsih and he shouldn't mind that. I might apologise for the holocaust but I'm not particulalry bothered to deny it. You don't want to kill the Jews either do you?
Post by Farmer Giles
(1) Someone the Jews don't like.
Yes but if we are to have a discussion with Jews and their apologists we need a better one than that.
Post by Farmer Giles
or
(2) Someone who dislikes Jews more than is absolutely necessary.' - H L
Mencken
Then neither you or I qualify.
Post by Farmer Giles
Instead of bleating about why they have been disliked for thousands of
years perhaps they should perhaps ask themselves why.
They won't though, or not enough of them will.
Post by Farmer Giles
'Any people that has been persecuted for two thousand years must be
doing something wrong' - Henry Kissinger
Of course, but how can we change that?
I was looking for a simple working definition that could be used as a basis for an argument. Then someone can try to explain what is so wrong with it, if anything.
Loo
k at this nonsense offered by Tim. What use could be made of it? Product
of some addled Swedish mind?
You only think it's nonsense because you're not very intelligent. In
fact you're quite stupid.
he just has a product to sell...and he's fearful of it becoming
unpopular
--
www.abelard.org
Farmer Giles
2018-04-09 06:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
Post by Farmer Giles
Self-serving tripe.
I'm trying to be conciliatory. I don't mind Sacks. He is pretty anglicised and has a right to his religion. He says "There is all the difference in the world between the virulent anti-Jewishness that dominated western Europe during the 19th century and its genteel English equivalent". Mine is genteel and Englsih and he shouldn't mind that. I might apologise for the holocaust but I'm not particulalry bothered to deny it. You don't want to kill the Jews either do you?
Post by Farmer Giles
(1) Someone the Jews don't like.
Yes but if we are to have a discussion with Jews and their apologists we need a better one than that.
Post by Farmer Giles
or
(2) Someone who dislikes Jews more than is absolutely necessary.' - H L
Mencken
Then neither you or I qualify.
Post by Farmer Giles
Instead of bleating about why they have been disliked for thousands of
years perhaps they should perhaps ask themselves why.
They won't though, or not enough of them will.
Post by Farmer Giles
'Any people that has been persecuted for two thousand years must be
doing something wrong' - Henry Kissinger
Of course, but how can we change that?
I was looking for a simple working definition that could be used as a basis for an argument. Then someone can try to explain what is so wrong with it, if anything.
Look at this nonsense offered by Tim. What use could be made of it? Product of some addled Swedish mind?
“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”
A "certain percpetion"? What perception? "My be expressed"? Or may not? As a definiton it's utter garbage.
The term is a complete misnomer anyway. First of all Arabs are also
Semites and, secondly, most Jews in fact aren't.

It's simply a dislike of Jews, but wrapped up in such a way to shift the
blame on to those who find Jewish ways objectionable.

I dislike Irish travellers, but is that my fault or the fact that the
majority of them cause problems, and are a major PITA, wherever they go?
saracene
2018-04-09 07:02:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
A "certain percpetion"? What perception? "May be expressed"? Or may not? As a definiton it's utter garbage.
The term is a complete misnomer anyway. First of all Arabs are also
Semites and, secondly, most Jews in fact aren't.
That is given. Still the term was coined some time in the nineteenth century to describe certain political movements that wanted to restrict the poltiical and civil rights of Jews. There were parties in Germany, Austria Russia and elsewhere, and a big movement in France sparked by the Dreyfus affair.
Post by Farmer Giles
It's simply a dislike of Jews,
I think it has to mean more than that. Anyone is entitled to dislike any group of people especailly if they tend to share personaliity traits. What could be wicked about that?
Post by Farmer Giles
but wrapped up in such a way to shift the
blame on to those who find Jewish ways objectionable.
Yes. The accusation involves an irrational almost mystical way of thinking and feeling, typified by Abelard's "defintion"(!) that I should look in the mirror, something I don't like doing at the moment as I am rapidly going bald.
Post by Farmer Giles
I dislike Irish travellers, but is that my fault or the fact that the
majority of them cause problems, and are a major PITA, wherever they go?
You shouldn't be so harsh on Sacks. He did study philosophy and is capable of joined up thinking, unlike Abelard or Tim. He has been critical of Israeli policy towards Palestinians. He defends the existence of Jews on the grounds they add something different. For not being chauvinist enough he has been accused of heresy.
saracene
2018-04-09 08:15:25 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, April 9, 2018 at 8:02:38 AM UTC+1, saracene wrote:


Moreover when I discuss Jewish behaviour, my measured and rational criticisms are deliberately misread into something I did not say, as if for example I am accusing almost every Jew of endorsing the attitudes that spring from a strong Jewish chauvinism.

No doubt three are some gentiles who would agree with Barbaras Roche and Spectre about the desirability of wrecking our culture with mass coloured immigration so Jews can feel safer. For them it does not matter that support for this policy derives from an identification with supposed Jewish interests that are very unlikely to be identical with those of the population at large.

The attacks on antisemitism are riddled with every dishonest rhetorical trick that can be brought to bear, and intelligent observations about Jewish power and character are twisted into the crudest distortions that might be entertained by the primitive mind.

I don't mind being caled antisemitic. My views are what they are and are not changed by having some label attached to them, especially one that does not mean very much.
Farmer Giles
2018-04-09 08:27:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by saracene
Post by Farmer Giles
A "certain percpetion"? What perception? "May be expressed"? Or may not? As a definiton it's utter garbage.
The term is a complete misnomer anyway. First of all Arabs are also
Semites and, secondly, most Jews in fact aren't.
That is given. Still the term was coined some time in the nineteenth century to describe certain political movements that wanted to restrict the poltiical and civil rights of Jews. There were parties in Germany, Austria Russia and elsewhere, and a big movement in France sparked by the Dreyfus affair.
Post by Farmer Giles
It's simply a dislike of Jews,
I think it has to mean more than that. Anyone is entitled to dislike any group of people especailly if they tend to share personaliity traits. What could be wicked about that?
Post by Farmer Giles
but wrapped up in such a way to shift the
blame on to those who find Jewish ways objectionable.
Yes. The accusation involves an irrational almost mystical way of thinking and feeling, typified by Abelard's "defintion"(!) that I should look in the mirror, something I don't like doing at the moment as I am rapidly going bald.
Post by Farmer Giles
I dislike Irish travellers, but is that my fault or the fact that the
majority of them cause problems, and are a major PITA, wherever they go?
You shouldn't be so harsh on Sacks. He did study philosophy and is capable of joined up thinking, unlike Abelard or Tim. He has been critical of Israeli policy towards Palestinians. He defends the existence of Jews on the grounds they add something different. For not being chauvinist enough he has been accused of heresy.
He's just doing what many of them do sometimes - even the arch-thicko
babbelard tries it now and again - that's attempt to prove that not all
the evidence points so glaringly in one direction.

They should just get used to be disliked. After all, when some of them
make statements like this how could it be otherwise?

'Norway is still a very homogeneous white European society so there is a
job to done'.
Ervin Kohn, President of The Jewish Community in Oslo and the Deputy
Director at the Norwegian Centre Against Racism.







It's a mystery why none of these have had their colours felt for
inciting religious or race hatred - but then again it isn't!
saracene
2018-04-09 08:38:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
http://youtu.be/GSrhJGGDqx0
It's a mystery why none of these have had their colours felt for
inciting religious or race hatred - but then again it isn't!
That's funny to Jews, the sort of thing they often burn to say. Deep hatred for the goyim is embedded in the religion.

This is funny to us:-


Tim
2018-04-09 08:53:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by saracene
Post by Farmer Giles
A "certain percpetion"? What perception? "May be expressed"? Or may
not? As a definiton it's utter garbage.
The term is a complete misnomer anyway. First of all Arabs are also
Semites and, secondly, most Jews in fact aren't.
That is given. Still the term was coined some time in the nineteenth
century to describe certain political movements that wanted to
restrict the poltiical and civil rights of Jews. There were parties in
Germany, Austria Russia and elsewhere, and a big movement in France
sparked by the Dreyfus affair.
Post by Farmer Giles
It's simply a dislike of Jews,
I think it has to mean more than that. Anyone is entitled to dislike
any group of people especailly if they tend to share personaliity
traits. What could be wicked about that?
Post by Farmer Giles
but wrapped up in such a way to shift the
blame on to those who find Jewish ways objectionable.
Yes. The accusation involves an irrational almost mystical way of
thinking and feeling, typified by Abelard's "defintion"(!) that I
should look in the mirror, something I don't like doing at the moment
as I am rapidly going bald.
Post by Farmer Giles
I dislike Irish travellers, but is that my fault or the fact that the
majority of them cause problems, and are a major PITA, wherever they go?
You shouldn't be so harsh on Sacks. He did study philosophy and is
capable of joined up thinking, unlike Abelard or Tim. He has been
critical of Israeli policy towards Palestinians. He defends the
existence of Jews on the grounds they add something different. For not
being chauvinist enough he has been accused of heresy.
He's just doing what many of them do sometimes - even the arch-thicko
babbelard tries it now and again
It seems Abelard and you have a mutual contempt for each other's
intellect. I very much doubt either of you could be classified as dull
witted or stupid.


- that's attempt to prove that not all
Post by Farmer Giles
the evidence points so glaringly in one direction.
They should just get used to be disliked. After all, when some of them
make statements like this how could it be otherwise?
'Norway is still a very homogeneous white European society so there is a
job to done'.
Ervin Kohn, President of The Jewish Community in Oslo and the Deputy
Director at the Norwegian Centre Against Racism.
http://youtu.be/GSrhJGGDqx0
http://youtu.be/MFE0qAiofMQ
It's a mystery why none of these have had their colours felt for
inciting religious or race hatred - but then again it isn't!
--
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Ophelia
2018-04-08 19:14:33 UTC
Permalink
"saracene" wrote in message news:757db5fa-0420-4a3a-b91e-***@googlegroups.com...

No one here is able or willing to offer a definition. So here is a not
unreasonable article from a few years ago by the chief rabbi of the time:-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/feb/28/comment

I never thought I would have to write about anti-semitism. Until recently I
hadn't experienced it. I might have done. I went to Christian schools, St
Mary's Primary, then Christ's College Finchley. We Jews were different and a
minority. Yet not once was I insulted for my faith.
Like many others born after the Holocaust, anti-semitism was something I
associated with the past. My late father spoke about it. He had come to
Britain as a child fleeing persecution, and he always argued that Polish
anti-semitism went deeper than that of the Germans. It was not until after
he died that I discovered that in Kielce, his home town, a pogrom had taken
place as late as July 1946. Local Poles shot, stoned, butchered or otherwise
murdered 42 Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. Yet despite all he knew, my
father never warned me to expect prejudice. If anything, he made a joke of
it. "Anti-semitic traffic lights", he would say whenever they turned red at
our approach.

Until now, I have been reticent about talking about anti-semitism. There is
all the difference in the world between the virulent anti-Jewishness that
dominated western Europe during the 19th century and its genteel English
equivalent (perfectly captured in Isabel Colegate's novel, The Shooting
Party, when the host remarks, after the Jewish guest has arrived: "The
semite is among us"). Indiscreet remarks by ambassadors at dinner parties do
not constitute a new Dreyfus case. Over-reaction is as foolish as
under-reaction. Anti-semitism is dangerous only when it enters the
mainstream of political discourse, something that has not yet happened in
Britain.

Then again, some Jews see antisemitism as part of Jewish identity. So did
Jean-Paul Sartre, who claimed in his Sur le Question Juif that the only
thing Jews had in common was that they were the victims of hate. It is not
Jews who create anti-semitism, he said, but anti-semitism that creates Jews.
I have fought that view all my adult life. It leads to the tortured
psychology of an Arthur Koestler, who wrote: "Self-hatred is the Jews
patriotism", or Franz Kafka, who said: "What do I have in common with the
Jews? I don't even have anything in common with myself." To me, Jewishness
is about moral responsibility, not victimhood; about trust, not fear.
Anti-semitism is something that happens to Jews; it does not define who we
are.


Equally we can too easily dismiss all criticism of the state or government
of Israel as anti-semitism. It is not. No democratic state is entitled to
consider itself beyond reproach, and Israel is a democratic state. Indeed it
was ancient Israel who, in the biblical prophets, invented the art of
self-criticism. Zionism is categorically not, as it is sometimes claimed to
be, "My people right or wrong". Yet some recent assaults on Israel have gone
beyond mere criticism. They have entered darker territory. The question is,
where do we draw the line?

Anti-semitism is so emotive a topic that it helps to perform a thought
experiment. Suppose someone were to claim that there is a form of prejudice
called anti-kiwism, an irrational hatred of New Zealanders. What might
convince us he was right? Criticism of the New Zealand government? No. A
denial of New Zealand's right to exist? Maybe. Seven thousand terrorist
attacks on New Zealand citizens in the past year? Possibly. A series of
claims at the UN Conference against Racism in Durban that New Zealand,
because of its treatment of the Maori, is uniquely guilty of apartheid,
ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity, accompanied by grotesque
Nazi-style posters? Perhaps.

A call to murder all those with New Zealand loyalties even though they were
born and live elsewhere? A suggestion that New Zealanders control the
world's economy? That they are responsible for Aids and poisoning water
supplies? That they arranged the September 11 attack on the World Trade
Centre? That they are a satanic force of evil against whom a holy war must
be fought? By now we have moved from criticism to hatred to evil fantasy.
But delete "New Zealand" and insert "Israel" and "Jews", and all these
things have happened in the past year. What more has to happen before an
impartial observer concludes that anti-semitism is alive and well and
dangerous?

A week ago a cleric in east London was charged with "soliciting to murder"
after allegedly distributing videos calling on his followers to attack Jews
("How do you fight the Jews? You kill the Jews.") Within days another video
appeared, showing the gruesome murder in Pakistan of American journalist
Daniel Pearl. He is shown being forced to kneel and confess that he and his
parents are Jewish. His throat is then cut. Over his writhing body, a voice
warns: "Other Americans and Jews should be ready to face a fate like Daniel
Pearl." These are only the most newsworthy of a wave of anti-Jewish
incidents that have gone round the world in recent months, affecting even
student life in Britain. This is not polite and genteel. This is the real,
ultimately murderous thing.


Anti-semitism is undeniably the most successful ideology of modern times.
Fascism came and went. Soviet communism came and went. Anti-semitism came
and stayed. Its success is due to the fact that, like a virus, it mutates.
At times it has been directed against Jews as individuals. Today it is
directed against Jews as a sovereign people. The common factor is that Jews,
uniquely, are denied the right to exist in whatever form their collective
existence currently takes. There is a direct line from "You have no right to
live among us as Jews" to "You have no right to live".

What disturbs me is that, were this cumulative hate to be directed against
anyone else, the left would be the first to protest. Have we learned nothing
from history? An assault on Jews is an assault on difference, and a world
that has no room for difference has no room for humanity itself.

==

It is dreadful:( Just arrogance that some think they are superior to
others. I don't care a fig about race, personality is all.
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