Discussion:
Trump responsible for Plane crash
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John
2020-01-11 06:16:23 UTC
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As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
abelard
2020-01-11 10:38:16 UTC
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Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
the nasty man made me do it
--
www.abelard.org
Pancho
2020-01-11 10:50:12 UTC
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Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
Unintended possibly, but it was reasonably foreseeable that something
like this would happen.

In Trump's favour the human tragedy is still very minor compared to the
actions of other recent presidents, hundreds of dead as compared to
hundreds of thousands.

The best thing would be if the US withdrew from the region, like they
have been asked to.
Roger
2020-01-13 06:58:18 UTC
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Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
An anti aircraft station on high alert near an international airport that had not been closed; and ATC were apparently unaware of the risks.

Add to that it was Russian anti aircraft which does not seem to be able to diffrentiate between targets......
Keema's Nan
2020-01-13 09:23:25 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
An anti aircraft station on high alert near an international airport that had
not been closed; and ATC were apparently unaware of the risks.
Add to that it was Russian anti aircraft which does not seem to be able to
diffrentiate between targets......
Let us all never mention the USS Vincennes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)

Kharma
Roger
2020-01-13 09:55:05 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
An anti aircraft station on high alert near an international airport that had
not been closed; and ATC were apparently unaware of the risks.
Add to that it was Russian anti aircraft which does not seem to be able to
diffrentiate between targets......
Let us all never mention the USS Vincennes
I thought the Captain was blamed for that....not following orders or procedures?
abelard
2020-01-13 09:57:54 UTC
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On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 09:23:25 +0000, Keema's Nan
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
An anti aircraft station on high alert near an international airport that had
not been closed; and ATC were apparently unaware of the risks.
Add to that it was Russian anti aircraft which does not seem to be able to
diffrentiate between targets......
Let us all never mention the USS Vincennes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)
why mention an irrelevant coincidental error made 30 years
ago?

so humans are mostly idiots...that is the way the world is
--
www.abelard.org
Pancho
2020-01-13 14:37:53 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
An anti aircraft station on high alert near an international airport that had
not been closed; and ATC were apparently unaware of the risks.
Add to that it was Russian anti aircraft which does not seem to be able to
diffrentiate between targets......
Let us all never mention the USS Vincennes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)
This wasn't really like the Vincennes.

If Iran had been supporting an aggressive enemy attacking the USA
homeland and an Iranian war ship had then deliberately shot down a US
commercial airliner, a couple of miles off the coast of the USA, then it
would be like the Vincennes.
Keema's Nan
2020-01-13 14:48:50 UTC
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Post by Pancho
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
An anti aircraft station on high alert near an international airport that had
not been closed; and ATC were apparently unaware of the risks.
Add to that it was Russian anti aircraft which does not seem to be able to
diffrentiate between targets......
Let us all never mention the USS Vincennes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)
This wasn't really like the Vincennes.
I feel another bullshit excuse for Western superiority is about to follow....
Post by Pancho
If Iran had been supporting an aggressive enemy attacking the USA
homeland and an Iranian war ship had then deliberately shot down a US
commercial airliner, a couple of miles off the coast of the USA, then it
would be like the Vincennes.
And there it is.

Pure bollocks of course, but nothing more than I would have expected.

Can you even imagine what might happen if an Iranian warship sailed a couple
of miles off the coast of the USA at any time, whether an aggressive enemy
was attacking or not?

The biggest difference is that the Iranian people are protesting about their
own governments actions, whereas the US people gave the captain of the
Vincennes a military award for his efforts.
Pancho
2020-01-13 16:36:51 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Can you even imagine what might happen if an Iranian warship sailed a couple
of miles off the coast of the USA at any time, whether an aggressive enemy
was attacking or not?
Well that was my point. Not only is the USA the aggressor, but it is
aggressive in places that there is very little reason to be.

They very thought of the Iranian military operating in North America is
unthinkable.

It is a double standard.
Roger
2020-01-14 06:47:34 UTC
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Post by Pancho
Post by Keema's Nan
Can you even imagine what might happen if an Iranian warship sailed a couple
of miles off the coast of the USA at any time, whether an aggressive enemy
was attacking or not?
Well that was my point. Not only is the USA the aggressor, but it is
aggressive in places that there is very little reason to be.
They very thought of the Iranian military operating in North America is
unthinkable.
It is a double standard.
I think the problem is the obsession with applying blame to one side of the warring factions.

Friendly fire is unfortunately common in warefire, therefore civilian planes flying through areas where AA is on red alert is going to tbe very risky.

In all these cases we are always left asking the inevitable question; why was the plane not diverted round the area?

What is suprising in the recent event is that an AA battery was on red alert just a few miles from an international airport whose ATC, run by the same government, appeared to be completely unaware.
Keema's Nan
2020-01-14 08:49:01 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by Pancho
Post by Keema's Nan
Can you even imagine what might happen if an Iranian warship sailed a couple
of miles off the coast of the USA at any time, whether an aggressive enemy
was attacking or not?
Well that was my point. Not only is the USA the aggressor, but it is
aggressive in places that there is very little reason to be.
They very thought of the Iranian military operating in North America is
unthinkable.
It is a double standard.
I think the problem is the obsession with applying blame to one side of the
warring factions.
Friendly fire is unfortunately common in warefire, therefore civilian planes
flying through areas where AA is on red alert is going to tbe very risky.
In all these cases we are always left asking the inevitable question; why was
the plane not diverted round the area?
What is suprising in the recent event is that an AA battery was on red alert
just a few miles from an international airport whose ATC, run by the same
government, appeared to be completely unaware.
What is also surprising, is that some anonymous person was filming a black
night sky on his smartphone (as you do?) at exactly the right time, and in
exactly the right direction; but just happened (completely coincidentally of
course) to film a rocket hitting an airliner and was able to share it almost
immediately with the world’s media.
Roger
2020-01-14 13:06:43 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by Pancho
Post by Keema's Nan
Can you even imagine what might happen if an Iranian warship sailed a couple
of miles off the coast of the USA at any time, whether an aggressive enemy
was attacking or not?
Well that was my point. Not only is the USA the aggressor, but it is
aggressive in places that there is very little reason to be.
They very thought of the Iranian military operating in North America is
unthinkable.
It is a double standard.
I think the problem is the obsession with applying blame to one side of the
warring factions.
Friendly fire is unfortunately common in warefire, therefore civilian planes
flying through areas where AA is on red alert is going to tbe very risky.
In all these cases we are always left asking the inevitable question; why was
the plane not diverted round the area?
What is suprising in the recent event is that an AA battery was on red alert
just a few miles from an international airport whose ATC, run by the same
government, appeared to be completely unaware.
What is also surprising, is that some anonymous person was filming a black
night sky on his smartphone (as you do?) at exactly the right time, and in
exactly the right direction;
I don't find that suprising; I believe the AA battery was hit by mistake and really believed they were targetting an incoming strike. As such I would imagine the smartphone owner to be someone connected to the AA battery.
Roger
2020-01-14 06:54:52 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pancho
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
An anti aircraft station on high alert near an international airport that had
not been closed; and ATC were apparently unaware of the risks.
Add to that it was Russian anti aircraft which does not seem to be able to
diffrentiate between targets......
Let us all never mention the USS Vincennes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)
This wasn't really like the Vincennes.
I feel another bullshit excuse for Western superiority is about to follow....
Post by Pancho
If Iran had been supporting an aggressive enemy attacking the USA
homeland and an Iranian war ship had then deliberately shot down a US
commercial airliner, a couple of miles off the coast of the USA, then it
would be like the Vincennes.
And there it is.
Pure bollocks of course, but nothing more than I would have expected.
I think his example is spot on, which is the bit you think does not match?. I don't understand why you think this is some sort of 'excuse'.

BTW, the big difference is that if people in the US protest enough people in high places get fired, if people in Iran protest enougth they get fired at.
Keema's Nan
2020-01-14 08:51:35 UTC
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Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pancho
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
An anti aircraft station on high alert near an international airport that
had
not been closed; and ATC were apparently unaware of the risks.
Add to that it was Russian anti aircraft which does not seem to be able to
diffrentiate between targets......
Let us all never mention the USS Vincennes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)
This wasn't really like the Vincennes.
I feel another bullshit excuse for Western superiority is about to follow....
Post by Pancho
If Iran had been supporting an aggressive enemy attacking the USA
homeland and an Iranian war ship had then deliberately shot down a US
commercial airliner, a couple of miles off the coast of the USA, then it
would be like the Vincennes.
And there it is.
Pure bollocks of course, but nothing more than I would have expected.
I think his example is spot on, which is the bit you think does not match?. I
don't understand why you think this is some sort of 'excuse'.
BTW, the big difference is that if people in the US protest enough people in
high places get fired, if people in Iran protest enougth they get fired at.
But people in the US didn’t protest. They needed to celebrate so much that
the ship’s captain was given a military award for his efforts.
Roger
2020-01-14 13:03:25 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Pancho
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Roger
Post by John
As an effect of unintended consequences, Iran was was on high air raid
alert and shot down an airliner.
An anti aircraft station on high alert near an international airport that
had
not been closed; and ATC were apparently unaware of the risks.
Add to that it was Russian anti aircraft which does not seem to be able
to
diffrentiate between targets......
Let us all never mention the USS Vincennes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)
This wasn't really like the Vincennes.
I feel another bullshit excuse for Western superiority is about to follow....
Post by Pancho
If Iran had been supporting an aggressive enemy attacking the USA
homeland and an Iranian war ship had then deliberately shot down a US
commercial airliner, a couple of miles off the coast of the USA, then it
would be like the Vincennes.
And there it is.
Pure bollocks of course, but nothing more than I would have expected.
I think his example is spot on, which is the bit you think does not match?. I
don't understand why you think this is some sort of 'excuse'.
BTW, the big difference is that if people in the US protest enough people in
high places get fired, if people in Iran protest enougth they get fired at.
But people in the US didn’t protest.
Yes they did; you seem to have a short memory. I remember quite a shebang.
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