Discussion:
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for paki's....
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CheeseySock
2019-11-08 11:06:00 UTC
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Permalink
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-11-08 11:22:03 UTC
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Permalink
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
Ophelia
2019-11-08 13:15:42 UTC
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Permalink
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.

==

What makes you think that?? That sounds terrible:(
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-11-08 14:54:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
  What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
A stubborn refusal to train people, other than in useless subjects.
Ophelia
2019-11-08 15:43:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
What makes you think that?? That sounds terrible:(
A stubborn refusal to train people, other than in useless subjects.

===

I will take your word for that:((
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-11-08 15:51:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
A stubborn refusal to train people, other than in useless subjects.
===
   I will take your word for that:((
I wouldn't. I may simply be feeling rather Saturnine today :-)
Ophelia
2019-11-08 15:52:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
What makes you think that?? That sounds terrible:(
A stubborn refusal to train people, other than in useless subjects.
===
I will take your word for that:((
I wouldn't. I may simply be feeling rather Saturnine today :-)

===

<g>
Farmer Giles
2019-11-08 15:20:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
  What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.

All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
Ophelia
2019-11-08 15:49:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
What makes you think that?? That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.

All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.

===

Damned disgrace:(( Why are they doing that?
Farmer Giles
2019-11-08 15:58:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
  Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.

Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it. It
is a situation that is entirely created by design.
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-11-08 16:33:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it. It
is a situation that is entirely created by design.
The solution seems simple, but no-one seems prepared to try it. Now, we
actually have jobs that young people consider are only fit to be done by
immigrants, yet they probably don't regard themselves as elitists or
racists.
Farmer Giles
2019-11-08 18:07:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run
without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
The solution seems simple, but no-one seems prepared to try it.  Now, we
actually have jobs that young people consider are only fit to be done by
immigrants, yet they probably don't regard themselves as elitists or
racists.
What are these jobs, and who is this 'no-one' not prepared to try what
you believe to be the simple solution?
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-11-09 00:49:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if
this situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
The solution seems simple, but no-one seems prepared to try it.  Now,
we actually have jobs that young people consider are only fit to be
done by immigrants, yet they probably don't regard themselves as
elitists or racists.
What are these jobs, and who is this 'no-one' not prepared to try what
you believe to be the simple solution?
The jobs are the ones that always seem to be filled by non-natives.
Amazon drivers; fruit and veg pickers; factory workers; and (in this
context) nurses and care workers. English youngsters seem to be holding
out for dream jobs. I would suggest that the simple solution is to stop
recruiting from overseas; stop pretending that everyone can be a
celebrity; and stop pretending that degrees in humanities are worth
anything nowadays.
Farmer Giles
2019-11-09 06:37:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if
this situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
The solution seems simple, but no-one seems prepared to try it.  Now,
we actually have jobs that young people consider are only fit to be
done by immigrants, yet they probably don't regard themselves as
elitists or racists.
What are these jobs, and who is this 'no-one' not prepared to try what
you believe to be the simple solution?
The jobs are the ones that always seem to be filled by non-natives.
Amazon drivers; fruit and veg pickers; factory workers; and (in this
context) nurses and care workers.
All those type of jobs were done by British people in past, and would be
done by them now if the pay and conditions were improved.

Amazon are notoriously bad employers. As regards to 'fruit and veg', I
grew up in rural Worcestershire at a time when an enormous amount of
fruit and vegetables were grown there. All of it was picked and
harvested by local people and 'travellers' - and schoolchildren in the
holidays, myself included. Nowadays, the scarcity of regular employment
in those areas often means that poorer families are dependent on
benefits, which makes seasonal employment a difficult proposition.

There are very few worthwhile factory jobs these days, most of them are
shitty little affairs that offer little in the way of secure employment
of the sort that anyone could plan any kind of future around - ditto
'care' jobs. Yes, immigrants will take them because they often come from
poor countries where pay is even lower - and living ten to a house helps
too!

The nurse situation is rather like that of doctors - i.e. it is cheaper
to recruit from abroad than train our own, plus the fact that it better
fits the 'replacement' agenda'. I had a girlfriend in the sixties who
was a student nurse. She lived, along with many others, in a nurses'
home that was attached to the hospital, and they trained every day on
the wards. Almost from day one they were performing a valuable service -
they were happy, and there was no shortage of youngsters prepared to do
it. Nowadays, they all have to go off and do a degree first - and then
often feel too grand to do any 'proper' nursing. It would be easy to
bring that system back, but it wouldn't fit the plans of the PTB.

English youngsters seem to be holding
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
out for dream jobs.  I would suggest that the simple solution is to stop
recruiting from overseas; stop pretending that everyone can be a
celebrity; and stop pretending that degrees in humanities are worth
anything nowadays.
That is such a piece of nonsense that it's not even worth addressing -
so I won't.

Yes, the solution to all this is simple, but it isn't anything that you
have proposed.
Pamela
2019-11-09 10:29:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more
visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if
this situation is created deliberately.
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer
places are made available at medical schools in this country that
there are good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
The solution seems simple, but no-one seems prepared to try it.
Now, we actually have jobs that young people consider are only fit to
be done by immigrants, yet they probably don't regard themselves as
elitists or racists.
What are these jobs, and who is this 'no-one' not prepared to try what
you believe to be the simple solution?
The jobs are the ones that always seem to be filled by non-natives.
Amazon drivers; fruit and veg pickers; factory workers; and (in this
context) nurses and care workers.
All those type of jobs were done by British people in past, and would be
done by them now if the pay and conditions were improved.
Amazon are notoriously bad employers. As regards to 'fruit and veg', I
grew up in rural Worcestershire at a time when an enormous amount of
fruit and vegetables were grown there. All of it was picked and
harvested by local people and 'travellers' - and schoolchildren in the
holidays, myself included.
Such is the marketplace of capitalism. It is efficient but brutal. Those
who feel excluded from these jobs should look to find work which suits
their skills better.
Post by Farmer Giles
Nowadays, the scarcity of regular employment
in those areas often means that poorer families are dependent on
benefits, which makes seasonal employment a difficult proposition.
There are very few worthwhile factory jobs these days, most of them are
shitty little affairs that offer little in the way of secure employment
of the sort that anyone could plan any kind of future around - ditto
'care' jobs.
Such jobs are not offered as a career. If someone wants a career then
they should study hard and get some qualifications to let them enter a
more rewarding line of work.
Post by Farmer Giles
Yes, immigrants will take them because they often come from
poor countries where pay is even lower - and living ten to a house helps
too!
The nurse situation is rather like that of doctors - i.e. it is cheaper
to recruit from abroad than train our own, plus the fact that it better
fits the 'replacement' agenda'. I had a girlfriend in the sixties who
was a student nurse. She lived, along with many others, in a nurses'
home that was attached to the hospital, and they trained every day on
the wards. Almost from day one they were performing a valuable service -
they were happy, and there was no shortage of youngsters prepared to do
it.
Those are the most poorly qualified nurses. As anyone knows, some nurses
are very poor and this is how too many of them were trained. It was
almost unheard of in those days for a nurse to be dismissed from the
profession for incompetence or malpractice.
Post by Farmer Giles
Nowadays, they all have to go off and do a degree first - and then
often feel too grand to do any 'proper' nursing. It would be easy to
bring that system back, but it wouldn't fit the plans of the PTB.
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
English youngsters seem to be holding
out for dream jobs.  I would suggest that the simple solution is to
stop recruiting from overseas; stop pretending that everyone can be a
celebrity; and stop pretending that degrees in humanities are worth
anything nowadays.
That is such a piece of nonsense that it's not even worth addressing -
so I won't.
Yes, the solution to all this is simple, but it isn't anything that you
have proposed.
I would agree that British youngsters seem to be holding out for dream
jobs. It's not only a result of the entitlement felt by Millenials but
also increasing properity in the UK.

Which Brits want those dirty hard menial jobs with long hours? Foreigners
seem happy to do them at a rate the employer finds attractive. They also
bring with them a better work ethic than many Brits. To get lazy Brits
interested, you would have to pay twice what the job is worth to the
employer.

Cheap foreign labour has permitted the economy to grow and the government
reaps more tax income which gets ploughed back into public services for
everyone.
Joe
2019-11-09 11:07:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 10:29:41 GMT
Post by Pamela
Cheap foreign labour has permitted the economy to grow and the
government reaps more tax income which gets ploughed back into public
services for everyone.
I've no doubt that the same argument was advanced in favour of slavery.
--
Joe
abelard
2019-11-10 12:08:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 10:29:41 GMT
Post by Pamela
Cheap foreign labour has permitted the economy to grow and the
government reaps more tax income which gets ploughed back into public
services for everyone.
I've no doubt that the same argument was advanced in favour of slavery.
more immigrant means bigger numbers...same way a ponzi scheme
'grows'...until it collapses

more gdp...more taxes...more hospitals....
--
www.abelard.org
Farmer Giles
2019-11-09 11:08:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more
visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if
this situation is created deliberately.
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer
places are made available at medical schools in this country that
there are good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
The solution seems simple, but no-one seems prepared to try it.
Now, we actually have jobs that young people consider are only fit to
be done by immigrants, yet they probably don't regard themselves as
elitists or racists.
What are these jobs, and who is this 'no-one' not prepared to try what
you believe to be the simple solution?
The jobs are the ones that always seem to be filled by non-natives.
Amazon drivers; fruit and veg pickers; factory workers; and (in this
context) nurses and care workers.
All those type of jobs were done by British people in past, and would be
done by them now if the pay and conditions were improved.
Amazon are notoriously bad employers. As regards to 'fruit and veg', I
grew up in rural Worcestershire at a time when an enormous amount of
fruit and vegetables were grown there. All of it was picked and
harvested by local people and 'travellers' - and schoolchildren in the
holidays, myself included.
Such is the marketplace of capitalism. It is efficient but brutal. Those
who feel excluded from these jobs should look to find work which suits
their skills better.
I was talking about part-time seasonal jobs, and why they are no longer
attractive to local people - and not everything should be left to the
'marketplace of capitalism'. Many worthwhile jobs from the past have
been lost through technological improvements. In itself this is a good
thing, but it should not be allowed to be something that benefits only a
minority leaving the majority at a disadvantage.
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Nowadays, the scarcity of regular employment
in those areas often means that poorer families are dependent on
benefits, which makes seasonal employment a difficult proposition.
There are very few worthwhile factory jobs these days, most of them are
shitty little affairs that offer little in the way of secure employment
of the sort that anyone could plan any kind of future around - ditto
'care' jobs.
Such jobs are not offered as a career. If someone wants a career then
they should study hard and get some qualifications to let them enter a
more rewarding line of work.
There are already more people studying hard and gaining qualifications
that ever before - and many of them can't get rewarding work. Yes, of
course, some of them have useless degrees in useless subjects but even
many with good degrees in valuable subjects - like engineering - often
struggle to find suitable work.
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Yes, immigrants will take them because they often come from
poor countries where pay is even lower - and living ten to a house helps
too!
The nurse situation is rather like that of doctors - i.e. it is cheaper
to recruit from abroad than train our own, plus the fact that it better
fits the 'replacement' agenda'. I had a girlfriend in the sixties who
was a student nurse. She lived, along with many others, in a nurses'
home that was attached to the hospital, and they trained every day on
the wards. Almost from day one they were performing a valuable service -
they were happy, and there was no shortage of youngsters prepared to do
it.
Those are the most poorly qualified nurses. As anyone knows, some nurses
are very poor and this is how too many of them were trained. It was
almost unheard of in those days for a nurse to be dismissed from the
profession for incompetence or malpractice.
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were nurses,
both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her mother was a
nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things that modern
nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure patients were
clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are now left to do
that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their diplomas and
certificates, swan around pretending that they're doctors, often
believing that they're far to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder
hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Nowadays, they all have to go off and do a degree first - and then
often feel too grand to do any 'proper' nursing. It would be easy to
bring that system back, but it wouldn't fit the plans of the PTB.
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
English youngsters seem to be holding
out for dream jobs.  I would suggest that the simple solution is to
stop recruiting from overseas; stop pretending that everyone can be a
celebrity; and stop pretending that degrees in humanities are worth
anything nowadays.
That is such a piece of nonsense that it's not even worth addressing -
so I won't.
Yes, the solution to all this is simple, but it isn't anything that you
have proposed.
I would agree that British youngsters seem to be holding out for dream
jobs. It's not only a result of the entitlement felt by Millenials but
also increasing properity in the UK.
You mean the sort of prosperity that requires the borrowing of over
£5000 every second, and a balance of payments deficit that dare not
speak its name?
Post by Pamela
Which Brits want those dirty hard menial jobs with long hours? Foreigners
seem happy to do them at a rate the employer finds attractive. They also
bring with them a better work ethic than many Brits. To get lazy Brits
interested, you would have to pay twice what the job is worth to the
employer.
Cheap foreign labour has permitted the economy to grow and the government
reaps more tax income which gets ploughed back into public services for
everyone.
If these foreigners have such a wonderful work ethic, and 'Brits' are as
lazy as you describe in your racist rant, why aren't their own countries
a model of efficiency and prosperity instead of the unproductive
wastelands that they all want to escape from?
Joe
2019-11-09 11:22:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were nurses,
both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her mother was
a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things that modern
nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure patients were
clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are now left to do
that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their diplomas and
certificates, swan around pretending that they're doctors, often
believing that they're far to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder
hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a specialist
ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is cleaned immediately,
by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait for a cleaner to arrive.
--
Joe
Farmer Giles
2019-11-09 11:48:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were nurses,
both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her mother was
a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things that modern
nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure patients were
clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are now left to do
that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their diplomas and
certificates, swan around pretending that they're doctors, often
believing that they're far to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder
hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a specialist
ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is cleaned immediately,
by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait for a cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their own
faeces and urine on the increase?
Pamela
2019-11-09 13:01:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were nurses,
both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her mother was
a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things that modern
nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure patients were
clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are now left to do
that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their diplomas and
certificates, swan around pretending that they're doctors, often
believing that they're far to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder
hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a specialist
ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is cleaned immediately,
by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait for a cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their own
faeces and urine on the increase?
Better reporting and oversight probably.

As for qualifications, I would rather have an over-qualified nurse then an
under-qualified one. It's misleading to suggest nurses fail to do their
basic tasks because they are qualified.

Well qualified nurses, such as nurse specialists, can take some of the
worldload off a doctor.

I think you may be looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.
Farmer Giles
2019-11-09 14:18:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were nurses,
both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her mother was
a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things that modern
nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure patients were
clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are now left to do
that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their diplomas and
certificates, swan around pretending that they're doctors, often
believing that they're far to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder
hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a specialist
ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is cleaned immediately,
by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait for a cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their own
faeces and urine on the increase?
Better reporting and oversight probably.
As for qualifications, I would rather have an over-qualified nurse then an
under-qualified one. It's misleading to suggest nurses fail to do their
basic tasks because they are qualified.
A State Registered Nurse was far from being 'under-qualified'.
Post by Pamela
Well qualified nurses, such as nurse specialists, can take some of the
worldload off a doctor.
I think you may be looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.
I think you will find many doctors and experienced nurses who agree with me.
Keema's Nan
2019-11-09 14:34:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were nurses,
both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her mother was
a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things that modern
nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure patients were
clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are now left to do
that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their diplomas and
certificates, swan around pretending that they're doctors, often
believing that they're far to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder
hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a specialist
ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is cleaned immediately,
by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait for a cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their own
faeces and urine on the increase?
Better reporting and oversight probably.
As for qualifications, I would rather have an over-qualified nurse then an
under-qualified one. It's misleading to suggest nurses fail to do their
basic tasks because they are qualified.
A State Registered Nurse was far from being 'under-qualified'.
Post by Pamela
Well qualified nurses, such as nurse specialists, can take some of the
worldload off a doctor.
I think you may be looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.
I think you will find many doctors and experienced nurses who agree with me.
It’s exasperating that when NHS staff are buckling under significant
workforce shortages and growing patient need, one government department
continues to ignore a quick win that could alleviate that pressure and
improve patient care. (‘No-brainer’ plans to allow more foreign doctors
into UK blocked by the Home Office
(https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/03/home-office-condemned-for-
blocking-overseas-doctor-recruiting-scheme), 4 November).

Clinicians are putting our faith in the next government to get to grips with
the health and care workforce crisis. Time after time the stats show just how
short of staff we really are, but anyone working on the frontline will tell
you the real situation is even worse.

The next government must deliver for hardworking and dedicatedNHS
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/nhs)staff. We need to double the number
of medical students and rapidly increase the numbers of doctors, nurses and
other clinicians in training, while also creating an environment where our
people are valued, recognised and rewarded.

Prof Andrew Goddard

President, Royal College of Physicians
Farmer Giles
2019-11-09 14:44:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were nurses,
both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her mother was
a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things that modern
nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure patients were
clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are now left to do
that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their diplomas and
certificates, swan around pretending that they're doctors, often
believing that they're far to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder
hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a specialist
ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is cleaned immediately,
by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait for a cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their own
faeces and urine on the increase?
Better reporting and oversight probably.
As for qualifications, I would rather have an over-qualified nurse then an
under-qualified one. It's misleading to suggest nurses fail to do their
basic tasks because they are qualified.
A State Registered Nurse was far from being 'under-qualified'.
Post by Pamela
Well qualified nurses, such as nurse specialists, can take some of the
worldload off a doctor.
I think you may be looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.
I think you will find many doctors and experienced nurses who agree with me.
It’s exasperating that when NHS staff are buckling under significant
workforce shortages and growing patient need, one government department
continues to ignore a quick win that could alleviate that pressure and
improve patient care. (‘No-brainer’ plans to allow more foreign doctors
into UK blocked by the Home Office
(https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/03/home-office-condemned-for-
blocking-overseas-doctor-recruiting-scheme), 4 November).
Clinicians are putting our faith in the next government to get to grips with
the health and care workforce crisis. Time after time the stats show just how
short of staff we really are, but anyone working on the frontline will tell
you the real situation is even worse.
The next government must deliver for hardworking and dedicatedNHS
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/nhs)staff. We need to double the number
of medical students and rapidly increase the numbers of doctors, nurses and
other clinicians in training, while also creating an environment where our
people are valued, recognised and rewarded.
Prof Andrew Goddard
President, Royal College of Physicians
"A friend of mine went to the doctors’ surgery for a blood test.

Doctors don’t do things like this anymore. They are far too important.

And so a nurse took the blood sample.

The result was an unnecessary bruise and a painful arm.

I saw the vein beforehand. The bruise was a result of nothing more than
rank incompetence.

It happens a lot.

Another friend went to have her blood pressure taken. The nurse had no
idea what she was doing. The level she recorded was dangerously misleading.

In the olden days, doctors used to do things like this themselves. They
took blood samples, tested urine, measured blood pressure, weighed
patients, syringed ears, put in and took out stitches and so on. They
even provided slimming advice and talked about healthy diets.

It was all part of being a doctor.

And it was important because it helped to seal the relationship between
doctor and patient.

Nurses in general practice didn’t have clinics and appointment systems
of their own – they went out to see patients at home. They dressed
sores, made sure bedbound patients didn’t develop bed sores (whenever a
patient develops bed sores it is a sign of incompetent nursing), checked
operation scars, gave injections and did a thousand practical things
that made life easier for patients.

These days patients who want to have a dressing changed have to drive to
a hospital 30 miles away, struggle to park and then wait four hours to
be seen. While in hospital there is a good chance that they’ll pick up
one of those nice deadly bugs that can’t be treated.

Things have gone wrong because doctors and nurses have become too damned
lazy and too damned self-important.

Doctors now work librarian hours. They spend most of their time having
meetings and filling in forms. Nurses study for degrees and want to be
treated with respect rather than affection. Most GPs are female (for
political reasons) and since female doctors often seem to have no sense
of vocation they want to work part time – thereby cutting their tax
liabilities but giving themselves a good income and lots of free time.

General practice has been destroyed from within.

It won’t recover until doctors and nurses learn that they exist to serve
their patients, to make their lives better and to ease all the many
pains and discomforts of illness.

Today, general practice exists to provide doctors and nurses with
well-paid undemanding jobs. It has no future at all."

Why General Practice is Dying

Dr Vernon Coleman MB ChB DSc FRSA
Pamela
2019-11-09 15:44:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were
nurses, both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her
mother was a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of
things that modern nurses would often regard as beneath them -
making sure patients were clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid
auxiliaries are now left to do that while today's so-called
nurses, awash with their diplomas and certificates, swan around
pretending that they're doctors, often believing that they're far
to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder hospitals are often rife
withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a
specialist ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is
cleaned immediately, by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait
for a cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their
own faeces and urine on the increase?
Better reporting and oversight probably.
As for qualifications, I would rather have an over-qualified nurse
then an under-qualified one. It's misleading to suggest nurses fail
to do their basic tasks because they are qualified.
A State Registered Nurse was far from being 'under-qualified'.
Post by Pamela
Well qualified nurses, such as nurse specialists, can take some of
the worldload off a doctor.
I think you may be looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.
I think you will find many doctors and experienced nurses who agree with me.
It’s exasperating that when NHS staff are buckling under significant
workforce shortages and growing patient need, one government department
continues to ignore a quick win that could alleviate that pressure and
improve patient care. (‘No-brainer’ plans to allow more foreign
doctors into UK blocked by the Home Office
(https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/03/home-office-condemned-
for- blocking-overseas-doctor-recruiting-scheme), 4 November).
Clinicians are putting our faith in the next government to get to grips
with the health and care workforce crisis. Time after time the stats
show just how short of staff we really are, but anyone working on the
frontline will tell you the real situation is even worse.
The next government must deliver for hardworking and dedicatedNHS
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/nhs)staff. We need to double the
number of medical students and rapidly increase the numbers of doctors,
nurses and other clinicians in training, while also creating an
environment where our people are valued, recognised and rewarded.
Prof Andrew Goddard
President, Royal College of Physicians
"A friend of mine went to the doctors’ surgery for a blood test.
Doctors don’t do things like this anymore. They are far too important.
And so a nurse took the blood sample.
The result was an unnecessary bruise and a painful arm.
I saw the vein beforehand. The bruise was a result of nothing more than
rank incompetence.
It happens a lot.
That must have been an untrained nurse. Even a poorly trained phelbotamist
can take bloods safely. Surely the author has something better to moan
about?
Another friend went to have her blood pressure taken. The nurse had no
idea what she was doing. The level she recorded was dangerously misleading.
Unfortunately many doctors can't take a blood pressure reading correctly
either. At a conference of 30 doctors only 3 took blood pressure correctly.
In the olden days, doctors used to do things like this themselves. They
took blood samples, tested urine, measured blood pressure, weighed
patients, syringed ears, put in and took out stitches and so on. They
even provided slimming advice and talked about healthy diets.
It was all part of being a doctor.
And it was important because it helped to seal the relationship between
doctor and patient.
It's all very well demanding the most highy qualified medical person take
routine blood samples but their time and training is better used elsewhere.
Nurses in general practice didn’t have clinics and appointment systems
of their own – they went out to see patients at home. They dressed
sores, made sure bedbound patients didn’t develop bed sores (whenever
a patient develops bed sores it is a sign of incompetent nursing),
checked operation scars, gave injections and did a thousand practical
things that made life easier for patients.
Medecine has become vastly more complex since the postwar years and nurses
are now trained in far more than dressing wounds. Perhaps the author
These days patients who want to have a dressing changed have to drive to
a hospital 30 miles away, struggle to park and then wait four hours to
be seen. While in hospital there is a good chance that they’ll pick up
one of those nice deadly bugs that can’t be treated.
The risk of picking up a bug on a 30 minute visit is enough for him to moan
about?
Things have gone wrong because doctors and nurses have become too damned
lazy and too damned self-important.
Doctors now work librarian hours. They spend most of their time having
meetings and filling in forms. Nurses study for degrees and want to be
treated with respect rather than affection. Most GPs are female (for
political reasons) and since female doctors often seem to have no sense
of vocation they want to work part time – thereby cutting their tax
liabilities but giving themselves a good income and lots of free time.
General practice has been destroyed from within.
It won’t recover until doctors and nurses learn that they exist to
serve their patients, to make their lives better and to ease all the
many pains and discomforts of illness.
Today, general practice exists to provide doctors and nurses with
well-paid undemanding jobs. It has no future at all."
Why General Practice is Dying
Dr Vernon Coleman MB ChB DSc FRSA
What do you expect from an anti-EU author?
abelard
2019-11-10 12:15:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 09 Nov 2019 14:34:11 +0000, Keema's Nan
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were nurses,
both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her mother was
a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things that modern
nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure patients were
clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are now left to do
that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their diplomas and
certificates, swan around pretending that they're doctors, often
believing that they're far to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder
hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a specialist
ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is cleaned immediately,
by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait for a cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their own
faeces and urine on the increase?
Better reporting and oversight probably.
As for qualifications, I would rather have an over-qualified nurse then an
under-qualified one. It's misleading to suggest nurses fail to do their
basic tasks because they are qualified.
A State Registered Nurse was far from being 'under-qualified'.
Post by Pamela
Well qualified nurses, such as nurse specialists, can take some of the
worldload off a doctor.
I think you may be looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.
I think you will find many doctors and experienced nurses who agree with me.
It’s exasperating that when NHS staff are buckling under significant
workforce shortages and growing patient need, one government department
continues to ignore a quick win that could alleviate that pressure and
improve patient care. (‘No-brainer’ plans to allow more foreign doctors
into UK blocked by the Home Office
(https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/nov/03/home-office-condemned-for-
blocking-overseas-doctor-recruiting-scheme), 4 November).
Clinicians are putting our faith in the next government to get to grips with
the health and care workforce crisis. Time after time the stats show just how
short of staff we really are, but anyone working on the frontline will tell
you the real situation is even worse.
The next government must deliver for hardworking and dedicatedNHS
(https://www.theguardian.com/society/nhs)staff. We need to double the number
of medical students and rapidly increase the numbers of doctors, nurses and
other clinicians in training, while also creating an environment where our
people are valued, recognised and rewarded.
Prof Andrew Goddard
President, Royal College of Physicians
wow, the medic's unions want more of other people's money

and the groaniad is pushing the union 'demands'

i'm flabbergasted
--
www.abelard.org
Keema's Nan
2019-11-09 14:37:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were nurses,
both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her mother was
a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things that modern
nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure patients were
clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are now left to do
that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their diplomas and
certificates, swan around pretending that they're doctors, often
believing that they're far to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder
hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a specialist
ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is cleaned immediately,
by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait for a cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their own
faeces and urine on the increase?
Better reporting and oversight probably.
As for qualifications, I would rather have an over-qualified nurse then an
under-qualified one. It's misleading to suggest nurses fail to do their
basic tasks because they are qualified.
A State Registered Nurse was far from being 'under-qualified'.
Post by Pamela
Well qualified nurses, such as nurse specialists, can take some of the
worldload off a doctor.
I think you may be looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.
I think you will find many doctors and experienced nurses who agree with me.
More letters to the Guardian

I agree with medical student Julia Simons wholeheartedly regarding funding
for the NHS (I couldn’t stay silent when Johnson visited my hospital
(https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/04/boris-johnson-hospital-
visit-nhs-staff-addenbrooke), Journal, 5 November).

I retired from my position as a consultant in a major London hospital in
2002; for many years prior to my retirement I was aware of the lack of
funding for the NHS, whichever government was in power. Each year, usually
just after Christmas, we were told that we were overspent and that measures
must be taken, such as closing wards, or no longer employing agency nurses or
locum doctors. Patients were made to suffer through ward closures and
increasing staff shortages.

I was recently a patient following major surgery in my local hospital. I was
delighted with my care, but well aware of chronic staff shortages on the
ward, with some nurses staying over their allotted time because of their
dedication to the service. They told me that they were under constant
pressure because of lack of money as well as lack of staff.

All the parties involved in the forthcoming election are promising large
increases in funding for the NHS, but what will happen when they get into
power? We have heard it all so often that we can’t afford it.

I hope that Julia Simons can survive her first two years as the shortages and
lack of funding often mean that too much pressure is placed on young doctors.
I am sure that she has a lot to offer the NHS. I am committed to the NHS and
want to see it successful, not to suffer because of the whims of politicians.

Name and address supplied

•Thank you, Julia Simons, for your personal account. Recently, I spent a
stressful time in a hospital described in our local paper as “increasingly
tired”. At a follow-up appointment I was seen by a junior doctor,
ashen-faced with sleep deprivation and overwork. He was kind, courteous and
thorough. Afterwards I said to my husband, “he is someone’s son”, I was
so concerned. We desperately need these young people, but empty promises are
not the answer.

Jean Jackson

Seer Green, Buckinghamshire

•Simon Jenkins is right to challenge the electoral sanctity of the NHS (The
NHS needs more than just cash. It needs major reform too
(https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/04/nhs-health-service-uk-
politicise), 4 November). It was indeed always political “since the day it
was born”. But Labour cannot claim exclusive parental rights. To do so
denies Liberalism its true place in our national legacy. The original driving
force for implementing the NHS was the 1942 Beveridge report. And as Tony
Blair reminded us in his 2001 conference speech: “Today our idea of society
is shaped around mutual responsibility; a deal, an agreement between
citizens, not a one-way gift from the well-off to the dependent. Our economic
and social policy today owes as much to the liberal social democratic
tradition of Lloyd George, Keynes and Beveridge as to the socialist
principles of the 1945 government.”

When Beveridge drew up the blueprint for the NHS, it was assumed that the
costs would be balanced by national insurance receipts. It was further
assumed that health spending would reduce as the nation’s health improved.
However, neither happened. What was set up originally with a blank cheque has
led to an uncontrolled debt that is being passed on to future generations.

Surely the role of today’s politicians is not to weaponise the NHS, but
instead to dispassionately allocate national spending as a proportion of our
national wealth, and to facilitate and liberalise best practice. At best,
cross-party. If not, through a renewed coalition of Labour and Liberal
values.

Mike Allott

Chandlers Ford, Hampshire
Pamela
2019-11-09 15:27:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Pamela
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were
nurses, both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her
mother was a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of things
that modern nurses would often regard as beneath them - making sure
patients were clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid auxiliaries are
now left to do that while today's so-called nurses, awash with their
diplomas and certificates, swan around pretending that they're
doctors, often believing that they're far to important to empty a
bedpan. No wonder hospitals are often rife withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a
specialist ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is cleaned
immediately, by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait for a
cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their
own faeces and urine on the increase?
Better reporting and oversight probably.
As for qualifications, I would rather have an over-qualified nurse then
an under-qualified one. It's misleading to suggest nurses fail to do
their basic tasks because they are qualified.
A State Registered Nurse was far from being 'under-qualified'.
In the old days not all nurses were SRNs. Now even junior nurses have proper
training before being let loose on patients.
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Pamela
Well qualified nurses, such as nurse specialists, can take some of the
worldload off a doctor.
I think you may be looking back with rose-tinted spectacles.
I think you will find many doctors and experienced nurses who agree with me.
Most unionised workers will try to get the most money for the least work.
Why we should listen to them on how to run our organisations is a mystery to
me.
abelard
2019-11-10 12:19:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Pamela
Most unionised workers will try to get the most money for the least work.
Why we should listen to them on how to run our organisations is a mystery to
me.
because they have votes
--
www.abelard.org
Joe
2019-11-09 16:41:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:48:39 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Joe
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 11:08:42 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
This really is nonsense. My wife's mother and her sister were
nurses, both SRNs with many years experience of real nursing. Her
mother was a nurse before and during WWII, doing the sort of
things that modern nurses would often regard as beneath them -
making sure patients were clean, dressing wounds, etc. Low-paid
auxiliaries are now left to do that while today's so-called
nurses, awash with their diplomas and certificates, swan around
pretending that they're doctors, often believing that they're far
to important to empty a bedpan. No wonder hospitals are often rife
withy nasty infections.
That stereotype may be exaggerated. I've seen a sister on a
specialist ward mopping the floor. If blood is spilled, it is
cleaned immediately, by whatever nurses are around. They don't wait
for a cleaner to arrive.
Really? Then why are the known incidents of patients lying in their
own faeces and urine on the increase?
Yes, I've no doubt it happens.

It just isn't universal, as you implied.
--
Joe
Dan S. MacAbre
2019-11-09 11:07:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if
this situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
The solution seems simple, but no-one seems prepared to try it.
Now, we actually have jobs that young people consider are only fit
to be done by immigrants, yet they probably don't regard themselves
as elitists or racists.
What are these jobs, and who is this 'no-one' not prepared to try
what you believe to be the simple solution?
The jobs are the ones that always seem to be filled by non-natives.
Amazon drivers; fruit and veg pickers; factory workers; and (in this
context) nurses and care workers.
All those type of jobs were done by British people in past, and would be
done by them now if the pay and conditions were improved.
Amazon are notoriously bad employers. As regards to 'fruit and veg', I
grew up in rural Worcestershire at a time when an enormous amount of
fruit and vegetables were grown there. All of it was picked and
harvested by local people and 'travellers' - and schoolchildren in the
holidays, myself included. Nowadays, the scarcity of regular employment
in those areas often means that poorer families are dependent on
benefits, which makes seasonal employment a difficult proposition.
There are very few worthwhile factory jobs these days, most of them are
shitty little affairs that offer little in the way of secure employment
of the sort that anyone could plan any kind of future around - ditto
'care' jobs. Yes, immigrants will take them because they often come from
poor countries where pay is even lower - and living ten to a house helps
too!
The nurse situation is rather like that of doctors - i.e. it is cheaper
to recruit from abroad than train our own, plus the fact that it better
fits the 'replacement' agenda'. I had a girlfriend in the sixties who
was a student nurse. She lived, along with many others, in a nurses'
home that was attached to the hospital, and they trained every day on
the wards. Almost from day one they were performing a valuable service -
they were happy, and there was no shortage of youngsters prepared to do
it. Nowadays, they all have to go off and do a degree first - and then
often feel too grand to do any 'proper' nursing. It would be easy to
bring that system back, but it wouldn't fit the plans of the PTB.
 English youngsters seem to be holding
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
out for dream jobs.  I would suggest that the simple solution is to
stop recruiting from overseas; stop pretending that everyone can be a
celebrity; and stop pretending that degrees in humanities are worth
anything nowadays.
That is such a piece of nonsense that it's not even worth addressing -
so I won't.
Yes, the solution to all this is simple, but it isn't anything that you
have proposed.
We seem to be in agreement on most of this.
abelard
2019-11-10 12:02:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if
this situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
The solution seems simple, but no-one seems prepared to try it.  Now,
we actually have jobs that young people consider are only fit to be
done by immigrants, yet they probably don't regard themselves as
elitists or racists.
What are these jobs, and who is this 'no-one' not prepared to try what
you believe to be the simple solution?
The jobs are the ones that always seem to be filled by non-natives.
Amazon drivers; fruit and veg pickers; factory workers; and (in this
context) nurses and care workers. English youngsters seem to be holding
out for dream jobs. I would suggest that the simple solution is to stop
recruiting from overseas; stop pretending that everyone can be a
celebrity; and stop pretending that degrees in humanities are worth
anything nowadays.
the best way is to dominate the education of your 'own' children
rather the abnegate that responsibility to the blob
--
www.abelard.org
Ophelia
2019-11-08 20:12:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
What makes you think that?? That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
Damned disgrace:(( Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.

Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it. It
is a situation that is entirely created by design.

===

Actually .... since you mention it:( What the hell is going on???

Why!!!! Do they hate our country so much?? Are they trying to run us
into the ground??

And who are 'they'??
Farmer Giles
2019-11-08 20:38:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it. It
is a situation that is entirely created by design.
===
   Actually .... since you mention it:(  What the hell is going on???
   Why!!!!  Do they hate our country so much??   Are they trying to run
us into the ground??
In a word, yes.
Post by Farmer Giles
    And who are 'they'??
All that I will say in answer to that, is to observe. No more is
required for it to eventually become very obvious.
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-08 21:40:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
   Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it. It
is a situation that is entirely created by design.
===
   Actually .... since you mention it:(  What the hell is going on???
   Why!!!!  Do they hate our country so much??   Are they trying to run
us into the ground??
In a word, yes.
Post by Farmer Giles
    And who are 'they'??
All that I will say in answer to that, is to observe. No more is
required for it to eventually become very obvious.
I think its the conspiracy theorists.

Patrick
Ophelia
2019-11-09 17:51:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
What makes you think that?? That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
Damned disgrace:(( Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it. It
is a situation that is entirely created by design.
===
Actually .... since you mention it:( What the hell is going on???
Why!!!! Do they hate our country so much?? Are they trying to run
us into the ground??
In a word, yes.
Post by Farmer Giles
And who are 'they'??
All that I will say in answer to that, is to observe. No more is
required for it to eventually become very obvious.

===

Hmm and then senior Doctors are leaving their posts because they are
being taxed so highly they can't afford to stay.

Another example I suspect??
abelard
2019-11-10 12:28:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 17:51:26 -0000, "Ophelia"
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
What makes you think that?? That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
Damned disgrace:(( Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it. It
is a situation that is entirely created by design.
===
Actually .... since you mention it:( What the hell is going on???
Why!!!! Do they hate our country so much?? Are they trying to run
us into the ground??
In a word, yes.
Post by Farmer Giles
And who are 'they'??
All that I will say in answer to that, is to observe. No more is
required for it to eventually become very obvious.
clowen/pivens

overload the system in order to bring it down....just another
socialist 'strategy'
Post by Farmer Giles
===
Hmm and then senior Doctors are leaving their posts because they are
being taxed so highly they can't afford to stay.
it is real hell trying to live on £100,000 at the lower end of
the trade
Post by Farmer Giles
Another example I suspect??
--
www.abelard.org
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-08 20:40:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
  Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it.
Across all sectors, not just health. 5.8m (of 32.7m) of the UK workforce were born outside the UK. There were 1.3m (including those born outside the UK) seeking work, and 0.8m vacancies. Of those active there are around 5m more UK jobs than UK people to fill them. Having been seeking trained/qualified staff in 2019 I can vouch for how tight the labour market is. We recruited non-UK EU citizens.

You could tap the economically inactive but I'd guess not many will be trained to fit the vacancies or (think 55+) willing to take the jobs. An alternative would be to reduce economic activity/employment but I doubt that would be popular.

Back on the health side I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone in to re-recruiting qualified staff who have left the health service.

Patrick

Stats:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/october2019
Farmer Giles
2019-11-08 21:50:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
  Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it.
Across all sectors, not just health. 5.8m (of 32.7m) of the UK workforce were born outside the UK. There were 1.3m (including those born outside the UK) seeking work, and 0.8m vacancies. Of those active there are around 5m more UK jobs than UK people to fill them. Having been seeking trained/qualified staff in 2019 I can vouch for how tight the labour market is. We recruited non-UK EU citizens.
You could tap the economically inactive but I'd guess not many will be trained to fit the vacancies or (think 55+) willing to take the jobs. An alternative would be to reduce economic activity/employment but I doubt that would be popular.
Back on the health side I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone in to re-recruiting qualified staff who have left the health service.
Patrick
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/october2019
I wonder who you're operating on behalf of?

Whoever it is they should ask for their money back, you're fooling no-one.
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-09 10:28:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
  Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it.
Across all sectors, not just health. 5.8m (of 32.7m) of the UK workforce were born outside the UK. There were 1.3m (including those born outside the UK) seeking work, and 0.8m vacancies. Of those active there are around 5m more UK jobs than UK people to fill them. Having been seeking trained/qualified staff in 2019 I can vouch for how tight the labour market is. We recruited non-UK EU citizens.
You could tap the economically inactive but I'd guess not many will be trained to fit the vacancies or (think 55+) willing to take the jobs. An alternative would be to reduce economic activity/employment but I doubt that would be popular.
Back on the health side I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone in to re-recruiting qualified staff who have left the health service.
Patrick
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/october2019
I wonder who you're operating on behalf of?
Just me
Post by Farmer Giles
Whoever it is they should ask for their money back
No money
Post by Farmer Giles
, you're fooling no-one.
I have developed an argument with evidence and sources. By comparison that, to me, is a weak response.

Patrick
Farmer Giles
2019-11-09 12:11:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
  Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it.
Across all sectors, not just health. 5.8m (of 32.7m) of the UK workforce were born outside the UK. There were 1.3m (including those born outside the UK) seeking work, and 0.8m vacancies. Of those active there are around 5m more UK jobs than UK people to fill them. Having been seeking trained/qualified staff in 2019 I can vouch for how tight the labour market is. We recruited non-UK EU citizens.
You could tap the economically inactive but I'd guess not many will be trained to fit the vacancies or (think 55+) willing to take the jobs. An alternative would be to reduce economic activity/employment but I doubt that would be popular.
Back on the health side I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone in to re-recruiting qualified staff who have left the health service.
Patrick
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/october2019
I wonder who you're operating on behalf of?
Just me
Post by Farmer Giles
Whoever it is they should ask for their money back
No money
Post by Farmer Giles
, you're fooling no-one.
I have developed an argument with evidence and sources. By comparison that, to me, is a weak response.
Patrick
You've had all the reponse you're going to get from me. My arguments are
'developed' with longer and wider experience than you're ever likely to
achieve. Besides, I recognised - and told you - long ago what sort of a
creep you clearly are.
Joe
2019-11-09 11:09:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 12:40:22 -0800 (PST)
Post by p***@gmail.com
Back on the health side I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone in to
re-recruiting qualified staff who have left the health service.
How would you do that without removing their reasons for leaving?
--
Joe
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-09 12:55:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 12:40:22 -0800 (PST)
Post by p***@gmail.com
Back on the health side I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone in to
re-recruiting qualified staff who have left the health service.
How would you do that without removing their reasons for leaving?
--
Joe
Some will have had changes in circumstances, kids growing older for example.
It's just that with 50% of registered nurses not practising in the NHS[1], over £70k to train a nurse and £2bn on agency fees there is a prize should the NHS get more existing trained staff back.

But more generally I don't think you can without more flexibility and financial incentives, and then there's a balance to ensure you don't disadvantage those still working so they in turn leave. Difficult.

Patrick

[1] https://www.hee.nhs.uk/sites/default/files/documents/Nurses%20leaving%20practice%20-%20Literature%20Review.pdf
abelard
2019-11-10 12:31:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
  Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it.
Across all sectors, not just health. 5.8m (of 32.7m) of the UK workforce were born outside the UK. There were 1.3m (including those born outside the UK) seeking work, and 0.8m vacancies. Of those active there are around 5m more UK jobs than UK people to fill them. Having been seeking trained/qualified staff in 2019 I can vouch for how tight the labour market is. We recruited non-UK EU citizens.
You could tap the economically inactive but I'd guess not many will be trained to fit the vacancies or (think 55+) willing to take the jobs. An alternative would be to reduce economic activity/employment but I doubt that would be popular.
Back on the health side I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone in to re-recruiting qualified staff who have left the health service.
Patrick
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/october2019
a basic objective of unions is to block competition
in order to increase their own bargaining power
--
www.abelard.org
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-10 13:40:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 12:40:22 -0800 (PST), patrick.hearn
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
  Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it.
Across all sectors, not just health. 5.8m (of 32.7m) of the UK workforce were born outside the UK. There were 1.3m (including those born outside the UK) seeking work, and 0.8m vacancies. Of those active there are around 5m more UK jobs than UK people to fill them. Having been seeking trained/qualified staff in 2019 I can vouch for how tight the labour market is. We recruited non-UK EU citizens.
You could tap the economically inactive but I'd guess not many will be trained to fit the vacancies or (think 55+) willing to take the jobs. An alternative would be to reduce economic activity/employment but I doubt that would be popular.
Back on the health side I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone in to re-recruiting qualified staff who have left the health service.
Patrick
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/october2019
a basic objective of unions is to block competition
in order to increase their own bargaining power
--
www.abelard.org
Arguable, but I'm not sure of its relevance to the argument (there are more non-UK workers in employment than there are UK workers unemployed and seeking employment).

FWIW the growth in employment 1982-2016 (23.8m to 31.8m) was inversely matched by falling trade union membership 1982-2016. Since 2016 there has been an uptick in both employment (1m) and TU membership, but as a % it's statistically irrelevant (23.3% to 23.4% of the workforce from 2017-18, for example). It's a study in employers blocking collective representation in order to increase their own bargaining power.

Stragely, doctors are an example of collective unity while nurses are not

Patrick

Links:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/805268/trade-union-membership-2018-statistical-bulletin.pdf

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/timeseries/mgrz/lms
abelard
2019-11-11 12:02:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 12:40:22 -0800 (PST), patrick.hearn
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Farmer Giles
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ...  more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others.  I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
   What makes you think that??    That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
  Damned disgrace:((   Why are they doing that?
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about immigration,
they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't run without it.
Across all sectors, not just health. 5.8m (of 32.7m) of the UK workforce were born outside the UK. There were 1.3m (including those born outside the UK) seeking work, and 0.8m vacancies. Of those active there are around 5m more UK jobs than UK people to fill them. Having been seeking trained/qualified staff in 2019 I can vouch for how tight the labour market is. We recruited non-UK EU citizens.
You could tap the economically inactive but I'd guess not many will be trained to fit the vacancies or (think 55+) willing to take the jobs. An alternative would be to reduce economic activity/employment but I doubt that would be popular.
Back on the health side I'm surprised more effort hasn't gone in to re-recruiting qualified staff who have left the health service.
Patrick
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/october2019
a basic objective of unions is to block competition
in order to increase their own bargaining power
--
www.abelard.org
Arguable, but I'm not sure of its relevance to the argument (there are more non-UK workers in employment than there are UK workers unemployed and seeking employment).
FWIW the growth in employment 1982-2016 (23.8m to 31.8m) was inversely matched by falling trade union membership 1982-2016. Since 2016 there has been an uptick in both employment (1m) and TU membership, but as a % it's statistically irrelevant (23.3% to 23.4% of the workforce from 2017-18, for example). It's a study in employers blocking collective representation in order to increase their own bargaining power.
for every action there is an 'equal' and opposite reaction
with some entropy injected
Post by p***@gmail.com
Stragely, doctors are an example of collective unity while nurses are not
Patrick
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/805268/trade-union-membership-2018-statistical-bulletin.pdf
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/timeseries/mgrz/lms
--
www.abelard.org
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-08 21:39:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 15:58:05 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
Having had some recent contact with the NHS, I have observed that
without immigrants, we'd have only half the medical staff, but we'd
also have only half the patients.
--
Joe
Around 13%-20% of NHS staff are non-UK.

Immigrants and visitors are a minority of the population. Such evidence as there is suggests: "The average use of health services by immigrants and visitors appears to be lower than that of people born in the United Kingdom".

From the same source "The use of NHS services by immigrants and visitors will also vary across the country, depending on the number and type of immigrants in the area" so it depends what you're accessing and where.

Patrick

Sources:
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7783

Note: It's 2015 and there is there is "a lack of reliable data on the use of health services by immigrants" visitorshttps://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigration-nhs
Joe
2019-11-09 11:14:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 13:39:06 -0800 (PST)
Post by p***@gmail.com
Such
evidence as there is suggests: "The average use of health services by
immigrants and visitors appears to be lower than that of people born
in the United Kingdom".
From the same source "The use of NHS services by immigrants and
visitors will also vary across the country, depending on the number
and type of immigrants in the area" so it depends what you're
accessing and where.
The proportion of non-whites accessing my local hospital is noticeably
higher than that of the people in the local streets and shops. Many of
them are very old and most of those speak little English. Draw your own
conclusions.
--
Joe
Incubus
2019-11-13 10:54:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 15:58:05 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
Having had some recent contact with the NHS, I have observed that
without immigrants, we'd have only half the medical staff, but we'd
also have only half the patients.
That fits my observations of hospitals and surgeries. They are always chock
full of brown people.
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-13 13:30:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Incubus
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 15:58:05 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
Having had some recent contact with the NHS, I have observed that
without immigrants, we'd have only half the medical staff, but we'd
also have only half the patients.
That fits my observations of hospitals and surgeries. They are always chock
full of brown people.
Brown people and immigrants aren't of course the same thing.

As above:

"The average use of health services by immigrants and visitors appears to be lower than that of people born in the United Kingdom".

"The use of NHS services by immigrants and visitors will also vary across the country, depending on the number and type of immigrants in the area" so it depends what you're accessing and where.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigration-nhs

Patrick
Incubus
2019-11-13 13:47:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Incubus
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 15:58:05 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
Having had some recent contact with the NHS, I have observed that
without immigrants, we'd have only half the medical staff, but we'd
also have only half the patients.
That fits my observations of hospitals and surgeries. They are always chock
full of brown people.
Brown people and immigrants aren't of course the same thing.
If you wish to ignore evidence of the population explosion due to immigration
and its effect on public services then by all means equivocate along such
lines.
Post by p***@gmail.com
"The average use of health services by immigrants and visitors appears to be lower than that of people born in the United Kingdom".
"The use of NHS services by immigrants and visitors will also vary across the country, depending on the number and type of immigrants in the area" so it depends what you're accessing and where.
https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigration-nhs
Patrick
Joe
2019-11-13 13:51:50 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 05:30:11 -0800 (PST)
Post by p***@gmail.com
"The average use of health services by immigrants and visitors
appears to be lower than that of people born in the United Kingdom".
Yes, you've quoted that before. It doesn't fit my observations.

Now, a little test: which is correct, hypothesis or observation?
--
Joe
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-13 16:52:04 UTC
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Post by Joe
On Wed, 13 Nov 2019 05:30:11 -0800 (PST)
Post by p***@gmail.com
"The average use of health services by immigrants and visitors
appears to be lower than that of people born in the United Kingdom".
Yes, you've quoted that before. It doesn't fit my observations.
Now, a little test: which is correct, hypothesis or observation?
--
Joe
Evidence over personal experience every time. A person could regularly observe a set of circumstances but their perceptions will be subjective and subject to concious and unconcious bias.

The poster's experience is that the people in their doctor's surgery are disproprtionately brown. My experience at my doctor's is that they are almost exclusively white. Both may be true - "The use of NHS services by immigrants and visitors will also vary across the country, depending on the number and type of immigrants in the area". Neither their observation or mine tells you anything meaningful about use of health services by different ethnic groups or by nationality, which some on here are seemingly trying to do.

Evidence can be objectively tested. Analysis is open to peer review. The King's Fund is a reputable organisation and - with the caveats they have set out - its objective analysis is as quoted. It's far more reliable than just personal observation.

Patrick
Keema's Nan
2019-11-13 14:20:18 UTC
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Post by p***@gmail.com
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 15:58:05 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
Having had some recent contact with the NHS, I have observed that
without immigrants, we'd have only half the medical staff, but we'd
also have only half the patients.
That fits my observations of hospitals and surgeries. They are always chock
full of brown people.
Brown people and immigrants aren't of course the same thing.
Yes, but suntans wear off after a few weeks, so the Brits soon return to
their whiteness.
Post by p***@gmail.com
"The average use of health services by immigrants and visitors appears to be
lower than that of people born in the United Kingdom".
Appears to be?

What does that mean?
Post by p***@gmail.com
"The use of NHS services by immigrants and visitors will also vary across the
country, depending on the number and type of immigrants in the area"
No shit Sherlock.
Post by p***@gmail.com
so it
depends what you're accessing and where.
But when you are told healthcare is free (NHS) and food is free (food banks)
in the UK, why bother about the cold weather and shit poor air quality giving
you perennial bronchitis compared to Syria/Iraq/Iran etc?

At least it is free warmth sitting all day in A&E.
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-13 17:09:05 UTC
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Post by Keema's Nan
Post by p***@gmail.com
On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 15:58:05 +0000
Post by Farmer Giles
Because they want to create the impression that without foreigners
providing our basic services nothing would function.
Have you not noticed that, whenever anyone complains about
immigration, they quickly answer that things like the NHS couldn't
run without it. It is a situation that is entirely created by design.
Having had some recent contact with the NHS, I have observed that
without immigrants, we'd have only half the medical staff, but we'd
also have only half the patients.
That fits my observations of hospitals and surgeries. They are always chock
full of brown people.
Brown people and immigrants aren't of course the same thing.
Yes, but suntans wear off after a few weeks, so the Brits soon return to
their whiteness.
There are UK-born 'Brits', non-UK born Britons and some non-Britons living in the UK. Some of each are white and some non-white.
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by p***@gmail.com
"The average use of health services by immigrants and visitors appears to be
lower than that of people born in the United Kingdom".
Appears to be?
What does that mean?
It's a form of words sometimes used when critically analysing data. It means their analysis of the data suggests that as the conclusion (see wider comments above on peerr reviews etc.). If you're unhappy with it, please contact the King's Fund.
Post by Keema's Nan
Post by p***@gmail.com
"The use of NHS services by immigrants and visitors will also vary across the
country, depending on the number and type of immigrants in the area"
No shit Sherlock.
Which is why personal observation is of limited value in assessing access to health services.

(snip)

Patrick

abelard
2019-11-10 12:01:04 UTC
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On Fri, 8 Nov 2019 15:49:13 -0000, "Ophelia"
Post by Farmer Giles
Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
==
What makes you think that?? That sounds terrible:(
Whatever it sounds like, one thing is certain - that far fewer places
are made available at medical schools in this country that there are
good students able and willing to train as doctors.
All part of the 'great replacement' agenda.
===
Damned disgrace:(( Why are they doing that?
because it can be cheaper to train 'our' medics abroad....

i've know cases where aspirants have chosen to go abroad
for training if they were keen enough....i don't know
whether they ever cam back

also be aware that big pharma tends to cream of the best
with juicy offers
--
www.abelard.org
A. Filip
2019-11-08 15:16:38 UTC
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Post by Dan S. MacAbre
Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Shortages in some countries - surpluses in others. I wonder if this
situation is created deliberately.
Deficiencies in planning beyond next elections may be mostly sufficient IMHO.

"Visas for pakis" reduce the problem in matter of months *cheaply*.
"Funding medical studies" will deliver new (untrained) doctors after a
few years.

Anyway 1: I am not under impression that "visas for pakis" is treated
as "a temporary fix" before local doctors are trained.
Anyway 2: You may consider granting visas (also) for people/doctors more
likely to "go back" (Poles, Romanians, Ukrainians …)
[ most/many of them will stay anyway]
--
A. Filip
| You roll my log, and I will roll yours. (Lucius Annaeus Seneca)
p***@gmail.com
2019-11-08 19:23:00 UTC
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Post by CheeseySock
more medical school places for white british?... no!, ... more visas for
paki's....
Or even non-white British.

A feature of 'taking back control' is that immigration has shifted from EEA to Asian, with no overall change in numbers.

I suspect that it's cheaper to import trained labour than to train it.

The GMC has produced quite a lot of data on this https://www.gmc-uk.org/static/documents/content/SoMEP_2017_chapter_2.pdf. Note "This decrease is partly due to a planned reduction in medical school intakes in England since 2013" and that training places are being expanded again from 2018, which will take time to filter through.

I was in the early noughties a CLP chair and a local MP was a health minister so we had some feedback. The average age of doctors was over 50 so as fast as you trained doctors others retired. Add to that (see the GMC report) the greater feminisation of practitioners and you needed more than 1 to replace each retiree due to maternity.

Since then you have had population growth and increased life expectancy with more ill people living longer. Anecdotally I've heard that there is a greater move to part-time work for male doctors too.

The perfect storm in nursing training has come from removing the bursary, increasing the fees and making loans repayable.

Patrick
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