Discussion:
ID Cards by Peter Hitchens
(too old to reply)
Darren Rhodes
2004-04-15 08:15:21 UTC
Permalink
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>

Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end of
privacy - and of England

The arguments in favour of identity cards are empty and false. The Prime
Minister says there are no civil liberty issues involved in their
introduction, when he means that nobody in his gutless Cabinet is prepared
to put up a principled fight on this issue. He himself does not know what
liberty is. Nor, clearly, does David Blunkett, who is planning to introduce
legislation that could force everyone in Britain to have identity cards
within five years. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir John Stevens,
says he wants ID cards to combat terrorism and illegal immigration and urges
us to accept his case because he is a senior policeman.

The matter is supposed to be more urgent than it was because of the recent
mass murder in Spain. The obvious fact - that Spanish citizens have carried
identity cards for years - does not seem to have occurred to those pushing
identity cards as a means of protecting us from terrorists. Nor do they seem
to have considered that most of the 11 September hijackers were in the USA
on perfectly valid visas. Professional terrorists, often with the aid of
state sponsors, can usually be guaranteed to have the most convincing papers
of anyone in the passport queue, and the cleanest records. It is you and I,
normal human beings, who are the ones likely to be held up because some
computer is convinced that our eyeballs do not match the records (the fabled
biometric scanning technology is actually nothing like as infallible as its
promoters claim). Anyone with recent experience of the Passport Office or
the DVLA will not be soothed by assurances that all will be well.

As for illegal immigrants, the most significant thing about them is that
once they are here it is all but impossible to send them home under existing
international law. The government knows this but prefers to keep quiet about
it. But that is why, when the police find obviously illegal arrivals
clambering out of lorries at midnight, they give them the address of the
nearest social services department and the Home Office immigration office
and wave them on their way. There is no point in doing anything else. How
would compelling British subjects to carry identity papers in any way alter
this fatuous process? It is the failure to halt undocumented migrants at the
frontier that needs to be remedied, a task which the government simply
shirks. Identity cards are not even a substitute for a proper immigration
policy. They are a wicked attempt to use New Labour's own failure to justify
a nasty attack on freedom.

The other great argument, that compulsory registration would in some way
combat crime, is similarly vacuous. What difference would it make? There is
no evidence that it has any effect on crime levels in any of the many
countries where cards are already compulsory. Given the almost total absence
of patrolling police officers from the streets, who would check for cards
anyway? Or would we have to submit to constant random round-ups and
roadblocks? And what would they prove? A man on the way to a burglary with a
valid identity card might well be left to carry on, while a respectable
citizen who had left his card at home might equally end up spending a night
in the cells. Given the inability of courts and police to convict, criminals
' identity cards will look just the same as everyone else's. Too many of our
politically correct police prefer to pursue the co-operative middle class
than to confront actual, frightening wrongdoers. It is easy to guess who
will be asked for papers and who will not, if they are ever imposed upon us.

The case for cards simply does not add up. It never has. That is because its
real purpose is one nobody would ever vote for - a profound change for the
worse in the relation between the individual and the state. As things stand,
any official has to justify himself to us. The police, for example, must
show warrant cards and wear numbers so that we can identify them. This is
the right way round and is an important part of living in a country with
limited government, where power is subject to law. It is, in fact, a living
proof of the presumption of innocence. We need have no business with the
state provided that we act within laws, which we have ourselves created to
govern ourselves. This is why we in these islands do not carry internal
passports, whereas almost everyone on continental Europe does. We are not
compelled, as they often are, to register with the police before we can be
connected to the electricity supply, or to show personal documents when we
purchase travel tickets. The power that identity cards give to officials -
to interrogate, obstruct and pry - is limitless, and they will use it.

Sadly, the last such episode in our history is largely forgotten. Most
people, on being told that identity cards were compulsory during the second
world war, think the measure was justified by the fear of invasion. This isn
't true. They were actually demanded, in 1939, not by the Home Office but by
the Ministry of Health, on the pretext of ensuring that people responded to
conscription. By the time they were issued, everyone of military age had
already signed up for service anyway, but the cards were still imposed. Why?
When I searched the newspaper archives for any instance of the cards aiding
the capture of a spy or a fifth columnist, I could not find a single one.
But I did discover cases of black-market trading in stolen cards, including
one so large that it ended up at the Old Bailey. Half a million people,
unsurprisingly, managed to lose theirs. Imagine the hours of queueing and
form-filling that led to. There were also cases of officiousness by police
officers and others oppressively demanding to see the papers of citizens.
Once the war was over, this jack-in-office pestilence continued to grow long
after any possible excuse for it was gone. The cards were not even of any
use to the innocent person arrested by mistake. In 1945 Charles Jarman, a
senior official of the National Union of Seamen, was held by police for
hours because they absurdly suspected him of having taken part in a
smash-and-grab raid. His valid identity card, which might have suggested to
any intelligent person that the detention was ridiculous, was no help at
all.

Perhaps the most poignant case in the files was of a Jewish furrier, Meyer
Rubinstein, who was prosecuted in May 1950 because he had never registered
his identity and so had never held a card. Presumably he had feared, in the
dangerous days of 1939, that the mere presence of his name on an official
register might one day cause his death. Who can blame him? The meticulously
registered Jews of the Continent were rounded up with great ease when the
time came, one of the few recorded and incontrovertible results of efficient
national registration. Even so, it is interesting that Mr Rubinstein had
managed to live undetected for 11 years in a Britain more regulated,
centralised, recorded and regimented than at any time before this one. He
was, however, one of the last victims of the law.

Soon afterwards, Mrs Joyce Mew of Tunbridge Wells refused to show her card
to a pettifogging rationing officer who knew perfectly well who she was (you
know the type). The case went to court and Mrs Mew was vindicated, to the
delight of many who were sick of demands to identify themselves in this way.
Even so, the government still refused to get rid of them until 1951, when
that unlikely hero of liberation, Lord Justice Goddard, sided with a
motorist who was asked by police for his card even though he had committed
no offence. Goddard growled that the police were legally entitled to behave
like this, but they ought not to be. 'The duty to produce a card,' he said
in words which Sir John Stevens might note, 'tends to make people resentful
of the acts of the police and inclines them to obstruct the police instead
of to assist them.' That did it. The cards were finally abolished and
millions of people gleefully tore them up.

In the intervening half-century, the Cold War compelled Western governments
at least to pretend they were in favour of liberty, since we were officially
battling against Soviet tyranny. The fact that Soviet citizens had to carry
internal passports was a rather strong argument against introducing them
here, much though the creepy authoritarians at the heart of the Home Office
must have wished they could emulate the Russians. Now the 'war against
terror' operates with a different ideology. It is not freedom our masters
are now protecting, but 'security', that fuzzy blanket of a word justifying
all kinds of monstrosities and misdeeds. Some think that the events of 11
September justify the suspension of scepticism about this (why, exactly?).
But Anthony Blair's enthusiasm for increased state power and contempt for
liberty - which he now links to the Manhattan massacre - long predates those
events. It was in September 1999 that he told a Labour conference, in a
passage about compulsory drug-testing for all arrested persons, 'It is time
to move beyond the social indifference of Right and Left, libertarian
nonsense masquerading as freedom.'

Mr Blair and his nasty government are actually one of the most powerful
arguments against allowing the introduction of identity cards. Their
tactics - to introduce supposedly voluntary cards but give themselves the
legal right to make them compulsory without a further Bill - are fishy and
reprehensible. But that is not the worst of it.

Some think that, because of the great number of specific identity documents
we carry, a single state-sponsored document would merely simplify our lives.
But the whole point about bank cards, passports, driving licences, office
passes and so forth is that they are limited to one purpose. A state
identity card would enable any government which chose, piece by piece and on
grounds of 'security', to combine tax, criminal, employment, health and even
education records in one place. The idea that 'if you have nothing to hide,
you have nothing to fear' would only apply if you had no concern whatever
for your own privacy. When I ask those who say this to send me their medical
details, bank statements and salary slips if they really have nothing to
hide, they tend to decline. Why, even the Prime Minister's own exam results
are a semi-official secret.

People who upset this government already tend to find that supposedly
confidential information about them mysteriously leaks into pro-Labour
newspapers. Imagine all the ways it is possible to use or abuse such
information once you have everyone's personal affairs on a central database
and Whitehall is full of morally illiterate apparatchiks trained in the
search-and-destroy methods of New Labour. Imagine the same pestilence
spreading throughout an increasingly unaccountable state machine. It would
be the end of privacy and, incidentally, the end of England.

Peter Hitchens is a columnist for the Mail on Sunday. His book The Abolition
of Liberty is published in paperback this month by Atlantic Books.

© 2004 The Spectator.co.uk
Havatcha
2004-04-15 09:12:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end of
privacy - and of England
Good old Hitchens, hits the nail squarely on the head.
Andrew Felton
2004-04-15 10:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Good old Hitchens, hits the nail squarely on the head.
As he usually does.
BOEDICIA
2004-04-15 20:00:29 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: ID Cards by Peter Hitchens
Date: 4/15/04 3:21 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Post by Havatcha
Good old Hitchens, hits the nail squarely on the head.
As he usually does.
He's a jew you know and in his salad days was a street rioting commie along
with his
still commie brother, Christopher Hitchens. Peter appears to have done a 360deg
turn since he matured.
Welsh Witch
2004-04-15 11:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end of
privacy - and of England
Good old Hitchens, hits the nail squarely on the head.
He also wrote similar in the Mail on Sunday..very good.
How about this Google lark then where they plan to use your personal e-mail
which will be saved by them to use for the purpose of targetting adverts to
your box...
I have to say i don;t know whether it will be more pertinent than the e-mail
advertising I get these days for increasing the size of that which I haven't
got!
http://www.walk-wales.org.uk/changeyourfindings.htm
Havatcha
2004-04-15 11:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Welsh Witch
Post by Havatcha
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end
of
Post by Havatcha
Post by Darren Rhodes
privacy - and of England
Good old Hitchens, hits the nail squarely on the head.
He also wrote similar in the Mail on Sunday..very good.
How about this Google lark then where they plan to use your personal e-mail
which will be saved by them to use for the purpose of targetting adverts to
your box...
I have to say i don;t know whether it will be more pertinent than the e-mail
advertising I get these days for increasing the size of that which I haven't
got!
http://www.walk-wales.org.uk/changeyourfindings.htm
If Google wish to that to the emails of those foolish enough to sign up
for their service then good luck to them. I certainly wont be
volunteering though.
BigCheese
2004-04-15 12:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Good old Hitchens, hits the nail squarely on the head.
Irony?
BigCheese
2004-04-15 11:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.

For example, using the example of the Spanish ID card system and it's
inability to prevent terrorism.

This parallel is vacous, as the Spanish system - as far as I know - is not
capable of verifying an ID when presented.

Any modern "ID system" worthy of the description must be able to do this.
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end of
privacy - and of England
The arguments in favour of identity cards are empty and false. The Prime
Minister says there are no civil liberty issues involved in their
introduction, when he means that nobody in his gutless Cabinet is prepared
to put up a principled fight on this issue. He himself does not know what
liberty is. Nor, clearly, does David Blunkett, who is planning to introduce
legislation that could force everyone in Britain to have identity cards
within five years. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir John Stevens,
says he wants ID cards to combat terrorism and illegal immigration and urges
us to accept his case because he is a senior policeman.
The matter is supposed to be more urgent than it was because of the recent
mass murder in Spain. The obvious fact - that Spanish citizens have carried
identity cards for years - does not seem to have occurred to those pushing
identity cards as a means of protecting us from terrorists. Nor do they seem
to have considered that most of the 11 September hijackers were in the USA
on perfectly valid visas. Professional terrorists, often with the aid of
state sponsors, can usually be guaranteed to have the most convincing papers
of anyone in the passport queue, and the cleanest records. It is you and I,
normal human beings, who are the ones likely to be held up because some
computer is convinced that our eyeballs do not match the records (the fabled
biometric scanning technology is actually nothing like as infallible as its
promoters claim). Anyone with recent experience of the Passport Office or
the DVLA will not be soothed by assurances that all will be well.
As for illegal immigrants, the most significant thing about them is that
once they are here it is all but impossible to send them home under existing
international law. The government knows this but prefers to keep quiet about
it. But that is why, when the police find obviously illegal arrivals
clambering out of lorries at midnight, they give them the address of the
nearest social services department and the Home Office immigration office
and wave them on their way. There is no point in doing anything else. How
would compelling British subjects to carry identity papers in any way alter
this fatuous process? It is the failure to halt undocumented migrants at the
frontier that needs to be remedied, a task which the government simply
shirks. Identity cards are not even a substitute for a proper immigration
policy. They are a wicked attempt to use New Labour's own failure to justify
a nasty attack on freedom.
The other great argument, that compulsory registration would in some way
combat crime, is similarly vacuous. What difference would it make? There is
no evidence that it has any effect on crime levels in any of the many
countries where cards are already compulsory. Given the almost total absence
of patrolling police officers from the streets, who would check for cards
anyway? Or would we have to submit to constant random round-ups and
roadblocks? And what would they prove? A man on the way to a burglary with a
valid identity card might well be left to carry on, while a respectable
citizen who had left his card at home might equally end up spending a night
in the cells. Given the inability of courts and police to convict, criminals
' identity cards will look just the same as everyone else's. Too many of our
politically correct police prefer to pursue the co-operative middle class
than to confront actual, frightening wrongdoers. It is easy to guess who
will be asked for papers and who will not, if they are ever imposed upon us.
The case for cards simply does not add up. It never has. That is because its
real purpose is one nobody would ever vote for - a profound change for the
worse in the relation between the individual and the state. As things stand,
any official has to justify himself to us. The police, for example, must
show warrant cards and wear numbers so that we can identify them. This is
the right way round and is an important part of living in a country with
limited government, where power is subject to law. It is, in fact, a living
proof of the presumption of innocence. We need have no business with the
state provided that we act within laws, which we have ourselves created to
govern ourselves. This is why we in these islands do not carry internal
passports, whereas almost everyone on continental Europe does. We are not
compelled, as they often are, to register with the police before we can be
connected to the electricity supply, or to show personal documents when we
purchase travel tickets. The power that identity cards give to officials -
to interrogate, obstruct and pry - is limitless, and they will use it.
Sadly, the last such episode in our history is largely forgotten. Most
people, on being told that identity cards were compulsory during the second
world war, think the measure was justified by the fear of invasion. This isn
't true. They were actually demanded, in 1939, not by the Home Office but by
the Ministry of Health, on the pretext of ensuring that people responded to
conscription. By the time they were issued, everyone of military age had
already signed up for service anyway, but the cards were still imposed. Why?
When I searched the newspaper archives for any instance of the cards aiding
the capture of a spy or a fifth columnist, I could not find a single one.
But I did discover cases of black-market trading in stolen cards, including
one so large that it ended up at the Old Bailey. Half a million people,
unsurprisingly, managed to lose theirs. Imagine the hours of queueing and
form-filling that led to. There were also cases of officiousness by police
officers and others oppressively demanding to see the papers of citizens.
Once the war was over, this jack-in-office pestilence continued to grow long
after any possible excuse for it was gone. The cards were not even of any
use to the innocent person arrested by mistake. In 1945 Charles Jarman, a
senior official of the National Union of Seamen, was held by police for
hours because they absurdly suspected him of having taken part in a
smash-and-grab raid. His valid identity card, which might have suggested to
any intelligent person that the detention was ridiculous, was no help at
all.
Perhaps the most poignant case in the files was of a Jewish furrier, Meyer
Rubinstein, who was prosecuted in May 1950 because he had never registered
his identity and so had never held a card. Presumably he had feared, in the
dangerous days of 1939, that the mere presence of his name on an official
register might one day cause his death. Who can blame him? The
meticulously
Post by Darren Rhodes
registered Jews of the Continent were rounded up with great ease when the
time came, one of the few recorded and incontrovertible results of efficient
national registration. Even so, it is interesting that Mr Rubinstein had
managed to live undetected for 11 years in a Britain more regulated,
centralised, recorded and regimented than at any time before this one. He
was, however, one of the last victims of the law.
Soon afterwards, Mrs Joyce Mew of Tunbridge Wells refused to show her card
to a pettifogging rationing officer who knew perfectly well who she was (you
know the type). The case went to court and Mrs Mew was vindicated, to the
delight of many who were sick of demands to identify themselves in this way.
Even so, the government still refused to get rid of them until 1951, when
that unlikely hero of liberation, Lord Justice Goddard, sided with a
motorist who was asked by police for his card even though he had committed
no offence. Goddard growled that the police were legally entitled to behave
like this, but they ought not to be. 'The duty to produce a card,' he said
in words which Sir John Stevens might note, 'tends to make people resentful
of the acts of the police and inclines them to obstruct the police instead
of to assist them.' That did it. The cards were finally abolished and
millions of people gleefully tore them up.
In the intervening half-century, the Cold War compelled Western governments
at least to pretend they were in favour of liberty, since we were officially
battling against Soviet tyranny. The fact that Soviet citizens had to carry
internal passports was a rather strong argument against introducing them
here, much though the creepy authoritarians at the heart of the Home Office
must have wished they could emulate the Russians. Now the 'war against
terror' operates with a different ideology. It is not freedom our masters
are now protecting, but 'security', that fuzzy blanket of a word justifying
all kinds of monstrosities and misdeeds. Some think that the events of 11
September justify the suspension of scepticism about this (why, exactly?).
But Anthony Blair's enthusiasm for increased state power and contempt for
liberty - which he now links to the Manhattan massacre - long predates those
events. It was in September 1999 that he told a Labour conference, in a
passage about compulsory drug-testing for all arrested persons, 'It is time
to move beyond the social indifference of Right and Left, libertarian
nonsense masquerading as freedom.'
Mr Blair and his nasty government are actually one of the most powerful
arguments against allowing the introduction of identity cards. Their
tactics - to introduce supposedly voluntary cards but give themselves the
legal right to make them compulsory without a further Bill - are fishy and
reprehensible. But that is not the worst of it.
Some think that, because of the great number of specific identity documents
we carry, a single state-sponsored document would merely simplify our lives.
But the whole point about bank cards, passports, driving licences, office
passes and so forth is that they are limited to one purpose. A state
identity card would enable any government which chose, piece by piece and on
grounds of 'security', to combine tax, criminal, employment, health and even
education records in one place. The idea that 'if you have nothing to hide,
you have nothing to fear' would only apply if you had no concern whatever
for your own privacy. When I ask those who say this to send me their medical
details, bank statements and salary slips if they really have nothing to
hide, they tend to decline. Why, even the Prime Minister's own exam results
are a semi-official secret.
People who upset this government already tend to find that supposedly
confidential information about them mysteriously leaks into pro-Labour
newspapers. Imagine all the ways it is possible to use or abuse such
information once you have everyone's personal affairs on a central database
and Whitehall is full of morally illiterate apparatchiks trained in the
search-and-destroy methods of New Labour. Imagine the same pestilence
spreading throughout an increasingly unaccountable state machine. It would
be the end of privacy and, incidentally, the end of England.
Peter Hitchens is a columnist for the Mail on Sunday. His book The Abolition
of Liberty is published in paperback this month by Atlantic Books.
© 2004 The Spectator.co.uk
Havatcha
2004-04-15 13:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.
For example, using the example of the Spanish ID card system and it's
inability to prevent terrorism.
This parallel is vacous, as the Spanish system - as far as I know - is not
capable of verifying an ID when presented.
Any modern "ID system" worthy of the description must be able to do this.
What do you mean by 'verifying an ID when presented.'?
BigCheese
2004-04-15 14:02:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.
For example, using the example of the Spanish ID card system and it's
inability to prevent terrorism.
This parallel is vacous, as the Spanish system - as far as I know - is not
capable of verifying an ID when presented.
Any modern "ID system" worthy of the description must be able to do this.
What do you mean by 'verifying an ID when presented.'?
Verify (by whatever means) against a central database that the individual is
who he says he is (or isn't).

Just having a "card" means nothing and is irrelevant in the context of
ID'ing an individual.

However, it is useful in minimising fraud.
Havatcha
2004-04-15 14:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Any modern "ID system" worthy of the description must be able to do
this.
Post by Havatcha
What do you mean by 'verifying an ID when presented.'?
Verify (by whatever means) against a central database that the individual is
who he says he is (or isn't).
Umm, the contents of this database and the actual identity of the person
in question cannot be coupled in any useful fashion.
Post by BigCheese
Just having a "card" means nothing and is irrelevant in the context of
ID'ing an individual.
However, it is useful in minimising fraud.
No doubt there is great public clamouring for a card to reduce fraud. I
for one, live in terror of being embezzled.
BigCheese
2004-04-15 14:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Any modern "ID system" worthy of the description must be able to do
this.
Post by Havatcha
What do you mean by 'verifying an ID when presented.'?
Verify (by whatever means) against a central database that the individual is
who he says he is (or isn't).
Umm, the contents of this database and the actual identity of the person
in question cannot be coupled in any useful fashion.
Explain why not please?

It seems that you are suggesting that it is of no use to know the identity
of an individual.
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Just having a "card" means nothing and is irrelevant in the context of
ID'ing an individual.
However, it is useful in minimising fraud.
No doubt there is great public clamouring for a card to reduce fraud. I
for one, live in terror of being embezzled.
And....?
Havatcha
2004-04-15 15:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Umm, the contents of this database and the actual identity of the person
in question cannot be coupled in any useful fashion.
Explain why not please?
OK, let me start a list:

1) The initial application for the ID card may have been less than honest.

2) The card may be fake, and using the number of an honest citizen.

3) The data held about the user may have been entered inaccurately.

4) If the database can be accessed remotely then its security cannot be
guaranteed. If it cannot be accessed remotely it is (by your own
admission) almost useless.

5).... etc
Post by BigCheese
It seems that you are suggesting that it is of no use to know the identity
of an individual.
No, I am suggesting that an ID card is useless in determining the true
identity of an individual who does not wish to be identified.
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Just having a "card" means nothing and is irrelevant in the context of
ID'ing an individual.
However, it is useful in minimising fraud.
No doubt there is great public clamouring for a card to reduce fraud. I
for one, live in terror of being embezzled.
And....?
I was being sarcastic.
The ID card scheme is being pushed as a means to improve 'security'.
This it will fail to do, as you are perhaps beginning to appreciate.
You now claim that it will help to reduce fraud, but there is no
overwhelming public concern about fraud, certainly nothing that would
justify the idea of a state ID card.
BigCheese
2004-04-15 15:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Umm, the contents of this database and the actual identity of the person
in question cannot be coupled in any useful fashion.
Explain why not please?
1) The initial application for the ID card may have been less than honest.
How? If the data is biometric - say the Iris, will he use someone elses
eyes?
If you mean he may identify himself falsely to start with, so what? He will
be on the system as an individual.
Post by Havatcha
2) The card may be fake, and using the number of an honest citizen.
Then it isn't verifyable ID - and is more like something out of the 1930's.
Post by Havatcha
3) The data held about the user may have been entered inaccurately.
Very weak.
Post by Havatcha
4) If the database can be accessed remotely then its security cannot be
guaranteed.
Says who? Even if not, what would be revealed? A name and number? There are
many firewall mechanisms to stop any other data being revealed. Anyway what
data? You seem to have already decided what any implementation will be.
Post by Havatcha
If it cannot be accessed remotely it is (by your own
admission) almost useless.
Useless for ID'ing individuals real time. However they could be made much
more difficult to counterfeit and be more use than current ID's. Also it
will still have many positive uses combating fraud etc.
Post by Havatcha
5).... etc
Post by BigCheese
It seems that you are suggesting that it is of no use to know the identity
of an individual.
No, I am suggesting that an ID card is useless in determining the true
identity of an individual who does not wish to be identified.
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Just having a "card" means nothing and is irrelevant in the context of
ID'ing an individual.
However, it is useful in minimising fraud.
No doubt there is great public clamouring for a card to reduce fraud. I
for one, live in terror of being embezzled.
And....?
I was being sarcastic.
The ID card scheme is being pushed as a means to improve 'security'.
This it will fail to do, as you are perhaps beginning to appreciate.
I think I already appreciated the arguments thanks. Those against continue
to be weak.
Post by Havatcha
You now claim that it will help to reduce fraud, but there is no
overwhelming public concern about fraud,
In your opinion. In my opinion there definitely is.
Post by Havatcha
certainly nothing that would
justify the idea of a state ID card.
In your opinion.
Havatcha
2004-04-16 09:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
How? If the data is biometric - say the Iris, will he use someone elses
eyes?
If you mean he may identify himself falsely to start with, so what? He will
be on the system as an individual.
Ot two individuals, or three. What makes you think biometric signatures
are unique?

http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/article/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg18024221.400
http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/article/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg18124321.100
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
2) The card may be fake, and using the number of an honest citizen.
Then it isn't verifyable ID - and is more like something out of the 1930's.
Post by Havatcha
3) The data held about the user may have been entered inaccurately.
Very weak.
Hardly! Happens all the time...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3630971.stm
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
4) If the database can be accessed remotely then its security cannot be
guaranteed.
Says who? Even if not, what would be revealed? A name and number? There are
many firewall mechanisms to stop any other data being revealed. Anyway what
data? You seem to have already decided what any implementation will be.
Not at all, I am simply making a statement of fact. It is impossible to
make a computer (or indeed any machine) that is 100% reliable. The
security of the data cannot be guaranteed. Your private details will
therefore be open to scrutiny.
Of course, your details will no doubt be readily available to various
government agencies who have shown themselves to be perfectly willing to
release such information for political gain.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1778660.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2029812.stm
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
It seems that you are suggesting that it is of no use to know the
identity
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
of an individual.
No, I am suggesting that an ID card is useless in determining the true
identity of an individual who does not wish to be identified.
I was being sarcastic.
The ID card scheme is being pushed as a means to improve 'security'.
This it will fail to do, as you are perhaps beginning to appreciate.
I think I already appreciated the arguments thanks. Those against continue
to be weak.
So, you will happily spend x billion pounds of taxpayers money on a
scheme that will have almost no effect on national security, will give
unprecedent levels of information about law-abiding citizens to petty
bureaucrats up and down the land, will mean that you have to be
fingerprinted or otherwise measured like a criminal and will permit yet
more pointless and demeaning state interference into your life.

All in favour of ID cards say 'Baaaaah'.
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
You now claim that it will help to reduce fraud, but there is no
overwhelming public concern about fraud,
In your opinion. In my opinion there definitely is.
You opinion is incorrect.
BigCheese
2004-04-16 12:17:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
How? If the data is biometric - say the Iris, will he use someone elses
eyes?
If you mean he may identify himself falsely to start with, so what? He will
be on the system as an individual.
Ot two individuals, or three. What makes you think biometric signatures
are unique?
http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/article/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg18024221.400
http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/article/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg18124321.100
If you want me to read your reference then you will have to cut and paste it
here as the web site requires registration and I value my privacy.

But I presume it states there are doubts about the uniqueness of biometric
data. So what?
As you illustrate below ID fraud and mistaken ID is rife now. It would be
much better IMO if the whole shebang was under one roof.

As I also said in an earlier post, the fact that 1, 2, 10 - I don't know -
others have similar biometric details will be largely irrelevant in
substantiating who you are *not*.

Lastly it is an implementation issue. Nothing to do with the *principle* of
verifiable ID.

Are you saying that if the ID was proven unique, you would be for it? No of
course not. Disingenuous tosh.
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
2) The card may be fake, and using the number of an honest citizen.
Then it isn't verifyable ID - and is more like something out of the 1930's.
Post by Havatcha
3) The data held about the user may have been entered inaccurately.
Very weak.
Hardly! Happens all the time...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3630971.stm
So what? The fact is that it is a very weak argument against ID cards as it
happens all the time now!

Thanks for proving my point.
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
4) If the database can be accessed remotely then its security cannot be
guaranteed.
Says who? Even if not, what would be revealed? A name and number? There are
many firewall mechanisms to stop any other data being revealed. Anyway what
data? You seem to have already decided what any implementation will be.
Not at all, I am simply making a statement of fact. It is impossible to
make a computer (or indeed any machine) that is 100% reliable. The
security of the data cannot be guaranteed. Your private details will
therefore be open to scrutiny.
What private details? Name and address? that is available now on the voters
register.
Post by Havatcha
Of course, your details will no doubt be readily available to various
government agencies who have shown themselves to be perfectly willing to
release such information for political gain.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1778660.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2029812.stm
Again, absolutely nothing to do with verifiable ID.
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
It seems that you are suggesting that it is of no use to know the
identity
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
of an individual.
No, I am suggesting that an ID card is useless in determining the true
identity of an individual who does not wish to be identified.
Define "true identity".
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
I was being sarcastic.
The ID card scheme is being pushed as a means to improve 'security'.
This it will fail to do, as you are perhaps beginning to appreciate.
I think I already appreciated the arguments thanks. Those against continue
to be weak.
So, you will happily spend x billion pounds of taxpayers money on a
scheme that will have almost no effect on national security, will give
unprecedent levels of information about law-abiding citizens to petty
bureaucrats up and down the land, will mean that you have to be
fingerprinted or otherwise measured like a criminal and will permit yet
more pointless and demeaning state interference into your life.
All in favour of ID cards say 'Baaaaah'.
2+2 = 176 correct?
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
You now claim that it will help to reduce fraud, but there is no
overwhelming public concern about fraud,
In your opinion. In my opinion there definitely is.
You opinion is incorrect.
There you go. You are the arbiter of fact. The whole of your post has very
little to do with the requirement for verifiable ID and a lot to do with
scaremongering, hyperbolic tosh.
Darren Rhodes
2004-04-16 13:19:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
How? If the data is biometric - say the Iris, will he use someone elses
eyes?
If you mean he may identify himself falsely to start with, so what? He
will
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
be on the system as an individual.
Ot two individuals, or three. What makes you think biometric signatures
are unique?
http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/article/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg1802422
1.400
http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/article/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg1812432
1.100
Post by BigCheese
If you want me to read your reference then you will have to cut and paste it
here as the web site requires registration and I value my privacy.
Isn't that a bit rich coming from you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Darren.


snip
Havatcha
2004-04-16 13:49:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/article/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg18024221.400
http://archive.newscientist.com/secure/article/article.jsp?rp=1&id=mg18124321.100
If you want me to read your reference then you will have to cut and paste it
here as the web site requires registration and I value my privacy.
WOOT! Why? If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear!
Post by Havatcha
But I presume it states there are doubts about the uniqueness of biometric
data. So what?
As you illustrate below ID fraud and mistaken ID is rife now. It would be
much better IMO if the whole shebang was under one roof.
As I also said in an earlier post, the fact that 1, 2, 10 - I don't know -
others have similar biometric details will be largely irrelevant in
substantiating who you are *not*.
Lastly it is an implementation issue. Nothing to do with the *principle* of
verifiable ID.
Are you saying that if the ID was proven unique, you would be for it? No of
course not. Disingenuous tosh.
Correct, I would be against it either way. But if you do not support the
'privacy' argument, you might support the 'difficulty in implementation'
argument.
Post by Havatcha
Post by Havatcha
Hardly! Happens all the time...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3630971.stm
So what? The fact is that it is a very weak argument against ID cards as it
happens all the time now!
Thanks for proving my point.
No, it proves that the data on the ID database will be inaccurate. Pray
that it is not your details it screws up when ID cards become
compulsary. Who will your bank / police station / hospital / benefit
office believe? You, with your honest, yeoman face, or the details
entered into the computer by some half-wit civil servant earning 10k pa?
Post by Havatcha
Post by Havatcha
Not at all, I am simply making a statement of fact. It is impossible to
make a computer (or indeed any machine) that is 100% reliable. The
security of the data cannot be guaranteed. Your private details will
therefore be open to scrutiny.
What private details? Name and address? that is available now on the voters
register.
Yes, that should require a warrent to view as well.
Post by Havatcha
Post by Havatcha
Of course, your details will no doubt be readily available to various
government agencies who have shown themselves to be perfectly willing to
release such information for political gain.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1778660.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2029812.stm
Again, absolutely nothing to do with verifiable ID.
To have verifiable ID you need a database. If you have a database can be
accessed by someone with political power, that data can be used against
you.
Ever hear some thug pronouncing 'I know where you live'? Extrapolate
from there.
Post by Havatcha
Post by Havatcha
Post by Havatcha
No, I am suggesting that an ID card is useless in determining the true
identity of an individual who does not wish to be identified.
Define "true identity".
Should we get an ID card it will be defined as 'the contents of your
file on our database, no matter how far removed from reality'.
Post by Havatcha
Post by Havatcha
You opinion is incorrect.
There you go. You are the arbiter of fact. The whole of your post has very
little to do with the requirement for verifiable ID and a lot to do with
scaremongering, hyperbolic tosh.
There is no requirement for verifiable ID.

1) It will not fulfill its proposed function,
2) It will be a dispicable invasion of privacy,
3) It will redefine the relationship between the individual and the state,
4) It will be absurdly expensive.
BigCheese
2004-04-16 15:25:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
What private details? Name and address? that is available now on the voters
register.
Yes, that should require a warrent to view as well.
Enough said.
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-16 12:38:26 UTC
Permalink
What makes you think biometric signatures are unique?
No one claims DNA is unique, just that tied in with oither details,
courts accept it as evidence, so would ID cards biometrics,
which is more conformation that cross referencing is required.
hummingbird
2004-04-16 18:44:07 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 16:47:49 +0100, "BigCheese" <***@home.com>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Umm, the contents of this database and the actual identity of the person
in question cannot be coupled in any useful fashion.
Explain why not please?
1) The initial application for the ID card may have been less than honest.
How? If the data is biometric - say the Iris, will he use someone elses
eyes?
If you mean he may identify himself falsely to start with, so what? He will
be on the system as an individual.
But you still will not know *who* he is Cheesy, only that the person
in front of you is the same person on the ID card. Where does that
get you.?

You're being disingenuous again.
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
2) The card may be fake, and using the number of an honest citizen.
Then it isn't verifyable ID - and is more like something out of the 1930's.
Post by Havatcha
3) The data held about the user may have been entered inaccurately.
Very weak.
There are many examples of State systems misidentifying people.

How about the English retired businessman wrongly held in the US some
months ago because the FBI thought the was a wanted criminal.
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
4) If the database can be accessed remotely then its security cannot be
guaranteed.
Says who? Even if not, what would be revealed? A name and number? There are
many firewall mechanisms to stop any other data being revealed. Anyway what
data? You seem to have already decided what any implementation will be.
For the identifying system to be *effective*, it must link up to a
massive list of databases around the world (to check such things as
duplicate IDs, wanted lists etc), but this is both not possible for
severe technical reasons and would cause massive queues of people
at ports of entry, supermarket checkouts etc etc.

Anything less than this will render the card half-useless.

You really are a fascist dumbhead cheesy.
Darren Rhodes
2004-04-16 22:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by hummingbird
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Umm, the contents of this database and the actual identity of the person
in question cannot be coupled in any useful fashion.
Explain why not please?
1) The initial application for the ID card may have been less than honest.
How? If the data is biometric - say the Iris, will he use someone elses
eyes?
If you mean he may identify himself falsely to start with, so what? He will
be on the system as an individual.
But you still will not know *who* he is Cheesy, only that the person
in front of you is the same person on the ID card. Where does that
get you.?
You're being disingenuous again.
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
2) The card may be fake, and using the number of an honest citizen.
Then it isn't verifyable ID - and is more like something out of the 1930's.
Post by Havatcha
3) The data held about the user may have been entered inaccurately.
Very weak.
There are many examples of State systems misidentifying people.
How about the English retired businessman wrongly held in the US some
months ago because the FBI thought the was a wanted criminal.
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
4) If the database can be accessed remotely then its security cannot be
guaranteed.
Says who? Even if not, what would be revealed? A name and number? There are
many firewall mechanisms to stop any other data being revealed. Anyway what
data? You seem to have already decided what any implementation will be.
For the identifying system to be *effective*, it must link up to a
massive list of databases around the world (to check such things as
duplicate IDs, wanted lists etc), but this is both not possible for
severe technical reasons and would cause massive queues of people
at ports of entry, supermarket checkouts etc etc.
Anything less than this will render the card half-useless.
You really are a fascist dumbhead cheesy.
Does anyone know Cheesy's identity? Where he lives? What he does for a
living? Can you believe that in another thread he was whining about his
privacy being compromised if he logged onto a newspaper website. Darren.
hummingbird
2004-04-17 01:32:05 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:31:35 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
<***@btopenworld.com>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Umm, the contents of this database and the actual identity of the
person
Post by hummingbird
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
in question cannot be coupled in any useful fashion.
Explain why not please?
1) The initial application for the ID card may have been less than
honest.
Post by hummingbird
Post by BigCheese
How? If the data is biometric - say the Iris, will he use someone elses
eyes?
If you mean he may identify himself falsely to start with, so what? He
will
Post by hummingbird
Post by BigCheese
be on the system as an individual.
But you still will not know *who* he is Cheesy, only that the person
in front of you is the same person on the ID card. Where does that
get you.?
You're being disingenuous again.
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
2) The card may be fake, and using the number of an honest citizen.
Then it isn't verifyable ID - and is more like something out of the
1930's.
Post by hummingbird
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
3) The data held about the user may have been entered inaccurately.
Very weak.
There are many examples of State systems misidentifying people.
How about the English retired businessman wrongly held in the US some
months ago because the FBI thought the was a wanted criminal.
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
4) If the database can be accessed remotely then its security cannot be
guaranteed.
Says who? Even if not, what would be revealed? A name and number? There
are
Post by hummingbird
Post by BigCheese
many firewall mechanisms to stop any other data being revealed. Anyway
what
Post by hummingbird
Post by BigCheese
data? You seem to have already decided what any implementation will be.
For the identifying system to be *effective*, it must link up to a
massive list of databases around the world (to check such things as
duplicate IDs, wanted lists etc), but this is both not possible for
severe technical reasons and would cause massive queues of people
at ports of entry, supermarket checkouts etc etc.
Anything less than this will render the card half-useless.
You really are a fascist dumbhead cheesy.
Does anyone know Cheesy's identity? Where he lives? What he does for a
living? Can you believe that in another thread he was whining about his
privacy being compromised if he logged onto a newspaper website. Darren.
Haven't got a clue but you don't surprise me one jot.

What people like him *really* want is for everybody else's privacy
and freedom to be curtailed but *not* their own.

His obsession with ID cards is worrying. obviously
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-15 23:19:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Umm, the contents of this database and the actual identity of the person
in question cannot be coupled in any useful fashion.
Explain why not please?
1) The initial application for the ID card may have been less than honest.
Same as any driving license, paspot, national insurance, health number
rapplication as now.
Post by Havatcha
2) The card may be fake, and using the number of an honest citizen.
Same as any driving license, paspot, national insurance, health number
rapplication as now.
Post by Havatcha
3) The data held about the user may have been entered inaccurately.
Same as any driving license, paspot, national insurance, health number
rapplication as now.
Post by Havatcha
4) If the database can be accessed remotely then its security cannot be
guaranteed. If it cannot be accessed remotely it is (by your own
admission) almost useless.
Same as any driving license, paspot, national insurance, health number
rapplication as now.
Post by Havatcha
5).... etc
So you agree, having all the systems combined,
with a single much stiffer test and cross referenced records must be better.
Solon
2004-04-16 08:48:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 00:19:41 +0100, "fred_eg_bowinatuck"
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
So you agree, having all the systems combined,
with a single much stiffer test and cross referenced records must be better.
What "much stiffer test" and "cross referenced records" do you have in
mind? Exactly what incontrovertible proofs are going to be required
for the new crapita id card database which are not already required
for passports and driving licences?

Exactly what checks do you say are going to be made by a group of
"underresourced" public sector employees struggling to record the
details of some 60 million people (many of whom will not already have
a passport or driving licence) over ... well, what period will this
panacea be phased in over? A year? A decade? A century? How long
exactly?
--
Solon
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-16 09:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
So you agree, having all the systems combined,
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
with a single much stiffer test and cross referenced records must be better.
What "much stiffer test" and "cross referenced records" do you have in
mind? Exactly what incontrovertible proofs are going to be required
for the new crapita id card database which are not already required
for passports and driving licences?
Exactly what checks do you say are going to be made by a group of
"underresourced" public sector employees struggling to record the
details of some 60 million people (many of whom will not already have
a passport or driving licence) over ... well, what period will this
panacea be phased in over? A year? A decade? A century? How long
exactly?
Very complicated question, being answered in a white paper I
believe, but whatever the tests are, the fact that cross referencing
will take place is an obvious improvement.
hummingbird
2004-04-16 18:44:05 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:58:58 +0100, "BigCheese" <***@home.com>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Any modern "ID system" worthy of the description must be able to do
this.
Post by Havatcha
What do you mean by 'verifying an ID when presented.'?
Verify (by whatever means) against a central database that the
individual is
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
who he says he is (or isn't).
Umm, the contents of this database and the actual identity of the person
in question cannot be coupled in any useful fashion.
Explain why not please?
It seems that you are suggesting that it is of no use to know the identity
of an individual.
Post by Havatcha
Post by BigCheese
Just having a "card" means nothing and is irrelevant in the context of
ID'ing an individual.
However, it is useful in minimising fraud.
No doubt there is great public clamouring for a card to reduce fraud. I
for one, live in terror of being embezzled.
And....?
And ...since it's banks and credit card companies who mainly suffer
from such fraud, the means of preventing it is within their own hands
and should be at their cost, *not* the taxpayer and here is no reason
for the State to be involved other than to prosecute those caught.
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-15 14:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.
Not that I agree with the introduction of ID cards,
just, most of the arguments agianst them are crap.
BigCheese
2004-04-15 15:01:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.
Not that I agree with the introduction of ID cards,
just, most of the arguments agianst them are crap.
I see it as a necessary evil, a pain in the arse, and would rather they were
not needed.

But I agree, the arguments against are just crap :)
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-15 15:13:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.
Not that I agree with the introduction of ID cards,
just, most of the arguments agianst them are crap.
I see it as a necessary evil,
a pain in the arse, and would rather they were not needed.
But I agree, the arguments against are just crap :)
I currently think I would come down against them,
MOST especially if they could be demanded on 'SUS'.

I would be for them, if they were based on the concept of 'receipt
of services / permission' identity single card, because I am fed up
with the multitude of spereate identity proofs I require.
BigCheese
2004-04-15 15:35:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.
Not that I agree with the introduction of ID cards,
just, most of the arguments agianst them are crap.
I see it as a necessary evil,
a pain in the arse, and would rather they were not needed.
But I agree, the arguments against are just crap :)
I currently think I would come down against them,
MOST especially if they could be demanded on 'SUS'.
I think many will come down against them on SUS.
But they would be wrong IMO.

In fact it could serve to protect the public. If certain people were
repeatedly being stopped, there could be a record of this and perhaps the
"victim" could seek legal redress more easily that currently.
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
I would be for them, if they were based on the concept of 'receipt
of services / permission' identity single card, because I am fed up
with the multitude of spereate identity proofs I require.
Well, I think that is what is going to happen. There will not be any
requirement to prove who you are "on the street" - unfortunately IMO.
It *will* be an entitlement card for public services - I suppose at least it
might
stop NHS tourists and save a few hundred million there and a few billion in
benefit fraud. But the "liberal" bleaters who don't require much from
welfare will be exempt.
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-15 23:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Not that I agree with the introduction of ID cards,
just, most of the arguments agianst them are crap.
I see it as a necessary evil,
a pain in the arse, and would rather they were not needed.
But I agree, the arguments against are just crap :)
I currently think I would come down against them,
MOST especially if they could be demanded on 'SUS'.
I think many will come down against them on SUS.
But they would be wrong IMO.
Do as I did, and stand by the CoL check point a few times.
When 1st installed (Irish terrorist alert), it was amazing how
many blacks and Asians required investigation and Irish
number plate vehicles regularly went through unchecked.
BigCheese
2004-04-16 12:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Not that I agree with the introduction of ID cards,
just, most of the arguments agianst them are crap.
I see it as a necessary evil,
a pain in the arse, and would rather they were not needed.
But I agree, the arguments against are just crap :)
I currently think I would come down against them,
MOST especially if they could be demanded on 'SUS'.
I think many will come down against them on SUS.
But they would be wrong IMO.
Do as I did, and stand by the CoL check point a few times.
When 1st installed (Irish terrorist alert), it was amazing how
many blacks and Asians required investigation and Irish
number plate vehicles regularly went through unchecked.
Well as I touched on earlier, a rigorous ID system might keep a record on
the checks individuals or groups made.

If they were targeting minorities or whoever unfairly, this could be brought
to light easily.

It helps no one if the custodians of the system abuse it. There will be
ample opportunities to incorporate checks and balances.
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-16 12:31:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
I touched on earlier, a rigorous ID system might keep a record on
the checks individuals or groups made.
You mean the SUS card, supposedly issued when someone is stopped?

I have seen hundreds of stops, three just today. One where the person
was taken away, another where the two boys details were checked, no
card issued and another where the group was merely questioned.
BigCheese
2004-04-16 13:00:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
I touched on earlier, a rigorous ID system might keep a record on
the checks individuals or groups made.
You mean the SUS card, supposedly issued when someone is stopped?
I have seen hundreds of stops, three just today. One where the person
was taken away, another where the two boys details were checked, no
card issued and another where the group was merely questioned.
Well it would be more sophisticate than that. Every copper or whoever did an
ID check, the check could be logged - automatically, not at the whim of the
copper.

Depending on what details were kept of an individual, if he were picking on
specific groups that *could* be revealed.

But, of course, as now, if he doesn't actually perform a check, and just
"stops" individuals then no record will be logged.
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-17 06:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
Well it would be more sophisticate than that. Every copper or whoever
did an ID check, the check could be logged - automatically, not at the
whim of the copper.
Last post on the subject: It is supposed to be more sofisticated
than that now, removing SUS from the whim of the officer.
Post by BigCheese
Depending on what details were kept of an individual,
if he were picking on specific groups that *could* be revealed.
Towr Hamlets, it is too easy to say,
well of course we mostly stop Asians.
Post by BigCheese
But, of course, as now, if he doesn't actually perform a check,
and just "stops" individuals then no record will be logged.
The first stop I saw, was a victim cruising the area in a police vehicle,
stopping to collect a suspect, the third was just a normal rowdy 'gang'
being moved on, but the second, two boys had to emtpy their pockets,
and details requested by radio, no card was issued.
j***@somewhere.com
2004-04-15 16:20:34 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:43:49 +0100, "fred_eg_bowinatuck"
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.
Not that I agree with the introduction of ID cards,
just, most of the arguments agianst them are crap.
You've not read cheesies and ROS's arguments for have you?

JRP
Fed Up
2004-04-19 21:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by BigCheese
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.
Not that I agree with the introduction of ID cards,
just, most of the arguments agianst them are crap.
Logically, they are the precursor to even worse, like RFIDing people, and if
you speak out against the Govt, your details go "missing" causing you major
probs.

--
© 2003. All rights reserved. No part of my post may be used or reproduced in
any form or by any means, or stored in a commercial database or retrieval
system (except bona fide Internet Service Providers for the purpose of
providing access to its non-commercial subscribers, which provider’s main
business is providing that service, Microsoft being expressly barred from
storing any part of my posts), without prior written permission from myself.
Making copies of any part of my posts for any purpose whatsoever is a
violation of my rights under copyright laws.

Darren Rhodes
2004-04-15 16:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by BigCheese
Mostly irrelevant scaremongering shite.
For example, using the example of the Spanish ID card system and it's
inability to prevent terrorism.
This parallel is vacous, as the Spanish system - as far as I know - is not
capable of verifying an ID when presented.
Any modern "ID system" worthy of the description must be able to do this.
So are you now saying that you're against id systems 'cos they don't work
and the one in Spain should be scrapped? Darren.



pearls snipped since replying to swine.
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-15 14:36:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darren Rhodes
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end of
privacy - and of England
Hypebolic crap, not worth reading past England,
as if it would not also affect Wales, etc.
Havatcha
2004-04-15 14:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by Darren Rhodes
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end
of
Post by Darren Rhodes
privacy - and of England
Hypebolic crap, not worth reading past England,
as if it would not also affect Wales, etc.
LOL! Is that the limit of your argument?
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-15 15:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Havatcha
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by Darren Rhodes
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end
of
Post by Darren Rhodes
privacy - and of England
Hypebolic crap, not worth reading past England,
as if it would not also affect Wales, etc.
LOL! Is that the limit of your argument?
Obviously!
A self proclaimed sage mistakes uses England for Great Britain,
is sufficient.
Darren Rhodes
2004-04-15 16:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by Darren Rhodes
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end
of
Post by Darren Rhodes
privacy - and of England
Hypebolic crap, not worth reading past England,
as if it would not also affect Wales, etc.
What if Wales and Scotland refuse to have the id cards? What if the Irish
refuse to have the id cards ... What if I refuse to have an id card 'cos I
say I'm either Welsh, Scottish or Irish? Are you saying that to implement
the system you're going to intern anyone who is Welsh, Scottish or Irish?
How would you be able to determine their status? By asking them to speak a
couple of sentences? They'll most probably be able to speak English more
proficiently than you. Darren.
j***@somewhere.com
2004-04-15 17:11:24 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 16:53:44 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Post by Darren Rhodes
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end
of
Post by Darren Rhodes
privacy - and of England
Hypebolic crap, not worth reading past England,
as if it would not also affect Wales, etc.
What if Wales and Scotland refuse to have the id cards? What if the Irish
refuse to have the id cards ...
They wouldn't be able to refuse as it would be a Westminster bill for
the whole of the UK.

JRP
fred_eg_bowinatuck
2004-04-15 23:15:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by fred_eg_bowinatuck
Hypebolic crap, not worth reading past England,
as if it would not also affect Wales, etc.
What if Wales and Scotland refuse to have the id cards?
What if the Irish refuse to have the id cards ...
I presume you meant Northern Irish, do try to be more accurate with
nationalities.

If any of the above win their point, there would be no ID in England either,
so as I said, any bufoon who talks only of England is not worth listening
to.
Post by Darren Rhodes
What if I refuse to have an id card 'cos I say I'm either Welsh, Scottish
or Irish?
Post by Darren Rhodes
Are you saying that to implement
the system you're going to intern anyone who is Welsh, Scottish or Irish?
How would you be able to determine their status? By asking them to speak a
couple of sentences?
Only a bufoon thinks passport, driving license or even (replacement)
national ID
systems are to be decided by Welsh, NI or Scottish Governments.
Post by Darren Rhodes
They'll most probably be able to speak English more
proficiently than you.
Observing your level of comprehension, I can only take that as a compliment.
hummingbird
2004-04-16 18:44:04 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:15:21 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
<***@btopenworld.com>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end of
privacy - and of England
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
In the intervening half-century, the Cold War compelled Western governments
at least to pretend they were in favour of liberty, since we were officially
battling against Soviet tyranny.
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
But Anthony Blair's enthusiasm for increased state power and contempt for
liberty - which he now links to the Manhattan massacre - long predates those
events. It was in September 1999 that he told a Labour conference, in a
passage about compulsory drug-testing for all arrested persons, 'It is time
to move beyond the social indifference of Right and Left, libertarian
nonsense masquerading as freedom.'
What an excellent article by Peter Hitchens.

Several key pieces left in above.
Darren Rhodes
2004-04-16 22:29:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by hummingbird
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:15:21 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end of
privacy - and of England
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
In the intervening half-century, the Cold War compelled Western governments
at least to pretend they were in favour of liberty, since we were officially
battling against Soviet tyranny.
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
But Anthony Blair's enthusiasm for increased state power and contempt for
liberty - which he now links to the Manhattan massacre - long predates those
events. It was in September 1999 that he told a Labour conference, in a
passage about compulsory drug-testing for all arrested persons, 'It is time
to move beyond the social indifference of Right and Left, libertarian
nonsense masquerading as freedom.'
What an excellent article by Peter Hitchens.
Several key pieces left in above.
I was especially alarmed at the manner in which Hitchens described the
prosecution of the Jewish chap. He'd escaped the horrors of Nazi Germany
and got to the land of the free, viz, Blighty. Whereupon he's asked to fill
in an id card - stuff that for a game of soldiers thinks he remembering what
happened to those in the old country who complied and ignores the request.
He carries on being a dutiful productive citizen etc ... for a number of
years until one day the state decides to come down on him like a ton of
bricks for not obtaining an id card. Utterly shameful. Darren.
hummingbird
2004-04-17 01:42:24 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:29:18 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
<***@btopenworld.com>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:15:21 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end
of
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
privacy - and of England
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
In the intervening half-century, the Cold War compelled Western
governments
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
at least to pretend they were in favour of liberty, since we were
officially
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
battling against Soviet tyranny.
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
But Anthony Blair's enthusiasm for increased state power and contempt for
liberty - which he now links to the Manhattan massacre - long predates
those
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
events. It was in September 1999 that he told a Labour conference, in a
passage about compulsory drug-testing for all arrested persons, 'It is
time
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
to move beyond the social indifference of Right and Left, libertarian
nonsense masquerading as freedom.'
What an excellent article by Peter Hitchens.
Several key pieces left in above.
I was especially alarmed at the manner in which Hitchens described the
prosecution of the Jewish chap. He'd escaped the horrors of Nazi Germany
and got to the land of the free, viz, Blighty. Whereupon he's asked to fill
in an id card - stuff that for a game of soldiers thinks he remembering what
happened to those in the old country who complied and ignores the request.
He carries on being a dutiful productive citizen etc ... for a number of
years until one day the state decides to come down on him like a ton of
bricks for not obtaining an id card. Utterly shameful. Darren.
Jews know all about ID cards and registration and the like.

Several years ago a book came out by a Jew about how the Nazis
were able to pin up name lists of all the Jews who must report to the
railway stations for deportation etc, in each town in occupied Europe
so soon after taking it over.

He discovered the Nazis had used local poll census and citizen
registration data and had it all tabulated by the local IBM
subsidiary.
Mike Mitchell
2004-04-17 09:41:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:42:24 +0100, hummingbird
Post by hummingbird
He discovered the Nazis had used local poll census and citizen
registration data and had it all tabulated by the local IBM
subsidiary.
One of the most rivetting books I have read recently is "IBM and the
Holocaust" by Edwin Black. This carefully describes in great detail
the association between IBM and its subsidiaries in Nazi Germany, as
well as Belgium, Switzerland and France. Without the punch card
machines Hitler would not have been able to round up the Jews (and
others he disliked) so efficiently. I often see Sharon and others
popping over to talk to Bush and the Republicans and think, do they
*know* how some Americans undermined the Jews before WWII? For the
almighty dollar.

Of course, IBM keeps quiet about it nowadays. Ford is another one.
Lots of the Wehrmacht trucks were Fords, made in Germany and
elsewhere. The Cologne Ford factory (where I worked in the 1970s) was
one of the first to reopen after 1945, as the US bomber pilots had
been warned to steer clear of that section of Cologne during the
carpet bombing. Henry Ford in 1938 was even awarded the highest Nazi
decoration, Großkreuz des Deutschen Adlerordens (Grand Cross of the
Order of the German Eagle) and here's a picture of him accepting it:
Loading Image... Mussolini got one, too.

MM
Darren Rhodes
2004-04-17 10:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:42:24 +0100, hummingbird
Post by hummingbird
He discovered the Nazis had used local poll census and citizen
registration data and had it all tabulated by the local IBM
subsidiary.
One of the most rivetting books I have read recently is "IBM and the
Holocaust" by Edwin Black. This carefully describes in great detail
the association between IBM and its subsidiaries in Nazi Germany, as
well as Belgium, Switzerland and France. Without the punch card
machines Hitler would not have been able to round up the Jews (and
others he disliked) so efficiently. I often see Sharon and others
popping over to talk to Bush and the Republicans and think, do they
*know* how some Americans undermined the Jews before WWII? For the
almighty dollar.
Of course, IBM keeps quiet about it nowadays. Ford is another one.
Lots of the Wehrmacht trucks were Fords, made in Germany and
elsewhere. The Cologne Ford factory (where I worked in the 1970s) was
one of the first to reopen after 1945, as the US bomber pilots had
been warned to steer clear of that section of Cologne during the
carpet bombing. Henry Ford in 1938 was even awarded the highest Nazi
decoration, Großkreuz des Deutschen Adlerordens (Grand Cross of the
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Ford.jpg Mussolini got one, too.
MM
Have you read anything about the participation of the judenrat members of
the rounding up of the jews? (I haven't. I wouldn't know where to start).
Darren.
Mike Mitchell
2004-04-17 20:20:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:59:30 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:42:24 +0100, hummingbird
Post by hummingbird
He discovered the Nazis had used local poll census and citizen
registration data and had it all tabulated by the local IBM
subsidiary.
One of the most rivetting books I have read recently is "IBM and the
Holocaust" by Edwin Black. This carefully describes in great detail
the association between IBM and its subsidiaries in Nazi Germany, as
well as Belgium, Switzerland and France. Without the punch card
machines Hitler would not have been able to round up the Jews (and
others he disliked) so efficiently. I often see Sharon and others
popping over to talk to Bush and the Republicans and think, do they
*know* how some Americans undermined the Jews before WWII? For the
almighty dollar.
Of course, IBM keeps quiet about it nowadays. Ford is another one.
Lots of the Wehrmacht trucks were Fords, made in Germany and
elsewhere. The Cologne Ford factory (where I worked in the 1970s) was
one of the first to reopen after 1945, as the US bomber pilots had
been warned to steer clear of that section of Cologne during the
carpet bombing. Henry Ford in 1938 was even awarded the highest Nazi
decoration, Großkreuz des Deutschen Adlerordens (Grand Cross of the
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Ford.jpg Mussolini got one, too.
MM
Have you read anything about the participation of the judenrat members of
the rounding up of the jews? (I haven't. I wouldn't know where to start).
Darren.
I did a search on Google and got 7,000 hits with the word "Judenrat".
Here's one page you can look at:
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/judenrat.html

MM
Fed Up
2004-04-17 12:15:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:42:24 +0100, hummingbird
Post by hummingbird
He discovered the Nazis had used local poll census and citizen
registration data and had it all tabulated by the local IBM
subsidiary.
One of the most rivetting books I have read recently is "IBM and the
Holocaust" by Edwin Black. This carefully describes in great detail
the association between IBM and its subsidiaries in Nazi Germany, as
well as Belgium, Switzerland and France. Without the punch card
machines Hitler would not have been able to round up the Jews (and
others he disliked) so efficiently. I often see Sharon and others
popping over to talk to Bush and the Republicans and think, do they
*know* how some Americans undermined the Jews before WWII? For the
almighty dollar.
Of course, IBM keeps quiet about it nowadays. Ford is another one.
Lots of the Wehrmacht trucks were Fords, made in Germany and
elsewhere. The Cologne Ford factory (where I worked in the 1970s) was
one of the first to reopen after 1945, as the US bomber pilots had
been warned to steer clear of that section of Cologne during the
carpet bombing. Henry Ford in 1938 was even awarded the highest Nazi
decoration, Großkreuz des Deutschen Adlerordens (Grand Cross of the
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Ford.jpg Mussolini got one, too.
Try George Bush the Unauthorized Biography by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton
Chaitkin d/loadable or readable online, for Bush's grandfather's involvement
up to and in WW2, and Antony C. Sutton's Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler.

--
© 2003. All rights reserved. No part of my post may be used or reproduced in
any form or by any means, or stored in a commercial database or retrieval
system (except bona fide Internet Service Providers for the purpose of
providing access to its non-commercial subscribers, which provider's main
business is providing that service, Microsoft being expressly barred from
storing any part of my posts), without prior written permission from myself.
Making copies of any part of my posts for any purpose whatsoever is a
violation of my rights under copyright laws.
Mike Mitchell
2004-04-17 20:22:22 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 12:15:01 GMT, "Fed Up"
Post by Fed Up
Try George Bush the Unauthorized Biography by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton
Chaitkin d/loadable or readable online, for Bush's grandfather's involvement
up to and in WW2, and Antony C. Sutton's Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler.
Oh, don't get me started on the Bush family! You're referring to
Prescott Bush, I believe.

MM
Fed Up
2004-04-17 22:29:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 12:15:01 GMT, "Fed Up"
Post by Fed Up
Try George Bush the Unauthorized Biography by Webster G. Tarpley & Anton
Chaitkin d/loadable or readable online, for Bush's grandfather's involvement
up to and in WW2, and Antony C. Sutton's Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler.
Oh, don't get me started on the Bush family! You're referring to
Prescott Bush, I believe.
Right.
hummingbird
2004-04-17 16:45:18 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:41:18 +0100, Mike Mitchell
<***@yahoo.co.uk>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Mike Mitchell
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:42:24 +0100, hummingbird
Post by hummingbird
He discovered the Nazis had used local poll census and citizen
registration data and had it all tabulated by the local IBM
subsidiary.
One of the most rivetting books I have read recently is "IBM and the
Holocaust" by Edwin Black.
IIRC that's the book I referred to. Black is Jewish but IBM denounced
the book when first published on grounds of inaccuracy and unfair
focus on activities which it said 'most corps were forced to do' in
Germany at that time. ho-ho.

But one has to remember, this was at a time when America had many
sympathies with the Nazis - and profit was profit.
Post by Mike Mitchell
This carefully describes in great detail
the association between IBM and its subsidiaries in Nazi Germany, as
well as Belgium, Switzerland and France. Without the punch card
machines Hitler would not have been able to round up the Jews (and
others he disliked) so efficiently.
Indeed, within days, they stuck up lists of Jews.
Anybody looking back on that today would keep well away from
UK ID cards, especially given our drift towards authoritarian govt.
Post by Mike Mitchell
I often see Sharon and others
popping over to talk to Bush and the Republicans and think, do they
*know* how some Americans undermined the Jews before WWII? For the
almighty dollar.
I think that today, Sharon and some of his followers are little more
than neo-Nazis themselves. And let's remember the Jewish role in the
Bolshevik revolution. They most certainly do not have clean hands
and their own suffering is dwarfed by that of others.
Post by Mike Mitchell
Of course, IBM keeps quiet about it nowadays. Ford is another one.
Lots of the Wehrmacht trucks were Fords, made in Germany and
elsewhere. The Cologne Ford factory (where I worked in the 1970s) was
one of the first to reopen after 1945, as the US bomber pilots had
been warned to steer clear of that section of Cologne during the
carpet bombing. Henry Ford in 1938 was even awarded the highest Nazi
decoration, Großkreuz des Deutschen Adlerordens (Grand Cross of the
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Ford.jpg Mussolini got one, too.
Fascinating. Just how close were the Americans and Nazis...
hummingbird
2004-04-17 16:50:41 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:41:18 +0100, Mike Mitchell
<***@yahoo.co.uk>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Mike Mitchell
...
elsewhere. The Cologne Ford factory (where I worked in the 1970s)
btw -
Ford of Europe in Warley were a customer of mine some years ago.
I spent many days in the IBM basement office :-(
Darren Rhodes
2004-04-17 10:56:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by hummingbird
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:29:18 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:15:21 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the end
of
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
privacy - and of England
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
In the intervening half-century, the Cold War compelled Western
governments
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
at least to pretend they were in favour of liberty, since we were
officially
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
battling against Soviet tyranny.
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
But Anthony Blair's enthusiasm for increased state power and contempt for
liberty - which he now links to the Manhattan massacre - long predates
those
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
events. It was in September 1999 that he told a Labour conference, in a
passage about compulsory drug-testing for all arrested persons, 'It is
time
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
to move beyond the social indifference of Right and Left, libertarian
nonsense masquerading as freedom.'
What an excellent article by Peter Hitchens.
Several key pieces left in above.
I was especially alarmed at the manner in which Hitchens described the
prosecution of the Jewish chap. He'd escaped the horrors of Nazi Germany
and got to the land of the free, viz, Blighty. Whereupon he's asked to fill
in an id card - stuff that for a game of soldiers thinks he remembering what
happened to those in the old country who complied and ignores the request.
He carries on being a dutiful productive citizen etc ... for a number of
years until one day the state decides to come down on him like a ton of
bricks for not obtaining an id card. Utterly shameful. Darren.
Jews know all about ID cards and registration and the like.
Several years ago a book came out by a Jew about how the Nazis
were able to pin up name lists of all the Jews who must report to the
railway stations for deportation etc, in each town in occupied Europe
so soon after taking it over.
He discovered the Nazis had used local poll census and citizen
registration data and had it all tabulated by the local IBM
subsidiary.
Ever heard of the programme 'The World at War'? I presume you do ... the
very long documentary series that tracks various aspects of world war 2.
Anyway, one episode I saw was based in Holland. They interviewed people who
lived through the experience. One chap said that when the Nazis came he
wasn't that bothered. He wasn't - at that time - aware of the jews being
gassed and death camps etc ... his attitude was that there was a war and so
lets just get one with it. He went on to say that they occupied the place;
some people may have welcomed them some people may have resented them; again
the tone in his narration was that of 'so what?'. He went on to say that
the Nazis issued a census. At this point the tone of the witness began to
change and he began to get emotional. He said that when the census came
around he didn't think anything about it. He just filled in the questions
... name: Herr Hechts (or whatever), address (No 2 Canal Rd), sex (Male),
religion (protestant) and at this point he almost broke down. With utter
shame he said that by filling in that form he had participated in the
extermination of the jews. He had made it easy for the Nazis to find out
where the jews lived since they needn't bother going to his address.
Darren.
hummingbird
2004-04-17 16:51:25 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:56:47 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
<***@btopenworld.com>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:29:18 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:15:21 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the
end
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
of
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
privacy - and of England
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
In the intervening half-century, the Cold War compelled Western
governments
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
at least to pretend they were in favour of liberty, since we were
officially
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
battling against Soviet tyranny.
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
But Anthony Blair's enthusiasm for increased state power and contempt
for
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
liberty - which he now links to the Manhattan massacre - long predates
those
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
events. It was in September 1999 that he told a Labour conference, in
a
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
passage about compulsory drug-testing for all arrested persons, 'It is
time
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
to move beyond the social indifference of Right and Left, libertarian
nonsense masquerading as freedom.'
What an excellent article by Peter Hitchens.
Several key pieces left in above.
I was especially alarmed at the manner in which Hitchens described the
prosecution of the Jewish chap. He'd escaped the horrors of Nazi Germany
and got to the land of the free, viz, Blighty. Whereupon he's asked to
fill
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
in an id card - stuff that for a game of soldiers thinks he remembering
what
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
happened to those in the old country who complied and ignores the
request.
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
He carries on being a dutiful productive citizen etc ... for a number of
years until one day the state decides to come down on him like a ton of
bricks for not obtaining an id card. Utterly shameful. Darren.
Jews know all about ID cards and registration and the like.
Several years ago a book came out by a Jew about how the Nazis
were able to pin up name lists of all the Jews who must report to the
railway stations for deportation etc, in each town in occupied Europe
so soon after taking it over.
He discovered the Nazis had used local poll census and citizen
registration data and had it all tabulated by the local IBM
subsidiary.
Ever heard of the programme 'The World at War'? I presume you do ... the
very long documentary series that tracks various aspects of world war 2.
Anyway, one episode I saw was based in Holland. They interviewed people who
lived through the experience. One chap said that when the Nazis came he
wasn't that bothered. He wasn't - at that time - aware of the jews being
gassed and death camps etc ... his attitude was that there was a war and so
lets just get one with it. He went on to say that they occupied the place;
some people may have welcomed them some people may have resented them; again
the tone in his narration was that of 'so what?'. He went on to say that
the Nazis issued a census. At this point the tone of the witness began to
change and he began to get emotional. He said that when the census came
around he didn't think anything about it. He just filled in the questions
... name: Herr Hechts (or whatever), address (No 2 Canal Rd), sex (Male),
religion (protestant) and at this point he almost broke down. With utter
shame he said that by filling in that form he had participated in the
extermination of the jews. He had made it easy for the Nazis to find out
where the jews lived since they needn't bother going to his address.
And no doubt all the data was tabulated by local IBM subs. tch tch.
Mike Mitchell
2004-04-17 20:28:13 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 10:56:47 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:29:18 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:15:21 +0000 (UTC), "Darren Rhodes"
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Darren Rhodes
From the Spectator Magazine Link here
<http://www.lewrockwell.com/spectator/spec271.html>
Contempt for liberty
Identity cards threaten law-abiding citizens more than they threaten
terrorists, says Peter Hitchens. Their introduction would signal the
end
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
of
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
privacy - and of England
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
In the intervening half-century, the Cold War compelled Western
governments
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
at least to pretend they were in favour of liberty, since we were
officially
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
battling against Soviet tyranny.
[...]
Post by Darren Rhodes
But Anthony Blair's enthusiasm for increased state power and contempt
for
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
liberty - which he now links to the Manhattan massacre - long predates
those
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
events. It was in September 1999 that he told a Labour conference, in
a
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
passage about compulsory drug-testing for all arrested persons, 'It is
time
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
to move beyond the social indifference of Right and Left, libertarian
nonsense masquerading as freedom.'
What an excellent article by Peter Hitchens.
Several key pieces left in above.
I was especially alarmed at the manner in which Hitchens described the
prosecution of the Jewish chap. He'd escaped the horrors of Nazi Germany
and got to the land of the free, viz, Blighty. Whereupon he's asked to
fill
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
in an id card - stuff that for a game of soldiers thinks he remembering
what
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
happened to those in the old country who complied and ignores the
request.
Post by hummingbird
Post by Darren Rhodes
He carries on being a dutiful productive citizen etc ... for a number of
years until one day the state decides to come down on him like a ton of
bricks for not obtaining an id card. Utterly shameful. Darren.
Jews know all about ID cards and registration and the like.
Several years ago a book came out by a Jew about how the Nazis
were able to pin up name lists of all the Jews who must report to the
railway stations for deportation etc, in each town in occupied Europe
so soon after taking it over.
He discovered the Nazis had used local poll census and citizen
registration data and had it all tabulated by the local IBM
subsidiary.
Ever heard of the programme 'The World at War'? I presume you do ... the
very long documentary series that tracks various aspects of world war 2.
Anyway, one episode I saw was based in Holland. They interviewed people who
lived through the experience. One chap said that when the Nazis came he
wasn't that bothered. He wasn't - at that time - aware of the jews being
gassed and death camps etc ... his attitude was that there was a war and so
lets just get one with it. He went on to say that they occupied the place;
some people may have welcomed them some people may have resented them; again
the tone in his narration was that of 'so what?'. He went on to say that
the Nazis issued a census. At this point the tone of the witness began to
change and he began to get emotional. He said that when the census came
around he didn't think anything about it. He just filled in the questions
... name: Herr Hechts (or whatever), address (No 2 Canal Rd), sex (Male),
religion (protestant) and at this point he almost broke down. With utter
shame he said that by filling in that form he had participated in the
extermination of the jews. He had made it easy for the Nazis to find out
where the jews lived since they needn't bother going to his address.
Darren.
It will take another generation (at least) in Germany before the grief
of their complicity has finally been expunged. That is why I conclude
that Germany today is Europe's model democracy. Apart from a few
neo-nazis they really do not want to go down that road again.
Meanwhile, in Britain, we seem to be only too keen to offer ourselves
up to hidden, anonymous, unaccountable bureaucrats and petty
officialdom that marked out the rise of Nazism. 'Cos, weve got nuffink
to 'ide, like!

MM
hummingbird
2004-04-17 22:45:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:28:13 +0100, Mike Mitchell
<***@yahoo.co.uk>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Mike Mitchell
It will take another generation (at least) in Germany before the grief
of their complicity has finally been expunged. That is why I conclude
that Germany today is Europe's model democracy. Apart from a few
neo-nazis they really do not want to go down that road again.
Meanwhile, in Britain, we seem to be only too keen to offer ourselves
up to hidden, anonymous, unaccountable bureaucrats and petty
officialdom that marked out the rise of Nazism. 'Cos, weve got nuffink
to 'ide, like!
Will Hutton had something to say on that subject...
--
"No state in the 20th century has ever been able to recast its economy,
political structures and society to the extent that Britain must do,
without suffering defeat in war, economic collapse or revolution.
Only traumatic events on that scale delegitimise the existing order to
such an extent that a nation concedes the case for dramatic change."
- Will Hutton - 'The State We're In'.
Mike Mitchell
2004-04-18 11:37:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 21:28:13 +0100, Mike Mitchell
<***@yahoo.co.uk>
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
Post by Mike Mitchell
It will take another generation (at least) in Germany before the grief
of their complicity has finally been expunged. That is why I conclude
that Germany today is Europe's model democracy. Apart from a few
neo-nazis they really do not want to go down that road again.
Meanwhile, in Britain, we seem to be only too keen to offer ourselves
up to hidden, anonymous, unaccountable bureaucrats and petty
officialdom that marked out the rise of Nazism. 'Cos, weve got nuffink
to 'ide, like!
Will Hutton had something to say on that subject...
--
"No state in the 20th century has ever been able to recast its
economy,
political structures and society to the extent that Britain must do,
without suffering defeat in war, economic collapse or revolution.
Only traumatic events on that scale delegitimise the existing order to
such an extent that a nation concedes the case for dramatic change."
- Will Hutton - 'The State We're In'.

Crikey, that so defines exactly what I've been thinking, but dared not
say it! By the way, did you hear than Ben Pimlott had died? I was
gobsmacked when I happened to notice a footnote in the Indy.

MM
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